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Disasters know no boundaries; saving Mother Earth is our collective responsibility.
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Heli-Medivac delay poses serious doubts on the high speed grounding of USS San Francisco at Micronesia.

Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:41 PM EDT
environment, nuclear, tsunami, quake, brisbane, blast, guam, 2004, bush-cheney, sumatra
By BK Lim
  • BK Lim 18 Oct 2011

Answers to the “Medivac Delay question” raise even more questions; posing serious doubts whether the grounding of the USS San Francisco could even occurred at Micronesia on 8 Jan 2005. Some details of the official-released eye-witnesses' accounts and time-line of events seem to better fit a submarine accident at the time of the 11am (Guam Time) mega quake, offshore Sumatra on 26 Dec 2004, than the accident at Micronesia.

First we examine the case for the purported accident at Micronesia. The official reasons given for the delayed medivac/rescue operation were

the crash location was too far (360 n_miles) and outside the 60S Knighthawk (return trip) 225 n mile range. The navy had to wait until the beleaguered submarine was within range to mount the heli medivac rescue.

  • the bad sea state on 8 Jan 2005. The heli medivac/rescue operation had to be called off.

  • Figure 164-6 shows an official release picture of the helicopter MH-60S Knighthawk, transferring medical personnel to the USS San Francisco on the morning of 9 Jan 2005. The location of the chopper transfer was not stated. We can only assume it was within the chopper 2-way range of 225 nautical miles from Guam.

    As with all fakes, scratch the surface and you see the evidence. The officially-released eye-witnesses' accounts, the purported liberty port call to Brisbane, the high speed collision and now the medivac delay, all did not stand up to scrutiny.

    The delayed medivac (actually there was none on official record) or heli-transfer of medical personnel on 9 Jan 2005 appeared to be just a photo-op for public consumption. There was evidently no multiple attempts at evacuating the seriously injured (medivac) for such a major accident that purportedly occurred less than 24 hours ago on 9 Jan. Would Ashley's shipmates cursed and cried in frustration if they had been surrounded by rescue vessels ready to render any assistance and help? No. So this account of frustration was written when the USS San Francisco was still alone in the open ocean.

    The tight quarters made it difficult to get Ashley off the boat to a helicopter that could take him to a hospital in Guam. Crewmen spent the night removing railings and lockers to clear a path to the only hatch considered safe to open. The next morning, they threaded Ashley's stretcher through small compartments and up narrow ladders, but the bridge hatch wouldn't open far enough to let it out. Some of his shipmates cursed and cried in frustration. Cooter died without regaining consciousness, 25½ hours after the accident.

    To recap, (we said in part 3) an immediate medivac / rescue operation to render urgent medical attention to 23 seriously injured men would have been top priority in any major accident whether in Micronesia or offshore Sumatra. The fact that the navy did not rush military, medical and engineering assistance to the grounded multi-billion nuclear submarine just 360 n_miles away from its Guam base is one big puzzling mystery.

    The navy owes it to the American public and all countries badly affected by the 2004 tsunami the truth.

    Micronesia is one of US protectorate island nation in the Pacific. So any excuse of obtaining official permission to enter Micronesia's airspace or territorial waters was just humbugs. Were permission ever sought when the USS San Francisco was running covert underwater operations in Asia or just before the “crash” on 8 January 2005?

    The 2004 tsunami caught the world by surprise but not the US Navy. Apparently, they had the foresight to prepare a heavily armed and engineering armada for such a “humanitarian mission” 12 months before the most devastating tsunami in human history.

    Did the Bush-Cheney administration suddenly turned soft on the War-On-Terror, giving preferential treatment to the poor muslim victims in Aceh (accused by Bush to be extremist terrorists) over the US servicemen in Micronesia? The epicentre of the quake was more than 2,800 n_miles from Guam while the purported crash location in Micronesia a mere 360 n_miles.

    Even military experts were perplexed. It was a mystery then and still a mystery now, more than 7 years later. The only plausible explanation; the Bush-Cheney administration lied to distance USS San Francisco's covert operation and involvement in the 2004 quake-tsunami. It would explain why Strike Force 5 armada was ready to sail on the instant. Elementary, my dear Watson!

    16 July 2005 http://www.clubconspiracy.com/forum/f30/nuclear-bomb-caused-12-26-04-a-884.html

    Needless to say the Australians were merely the advance party, soon to be joined by a curiously well prepared and equipped U.S. Military...........why they had been spending a whole year training for a "Humanitarian Mission", when the whole point of the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps is normally to kill people in very large numbers.

    As if by magic, the Pentagon managed to have two battle groups ready to sail at an instant's notice from Hong Kong and Guam during the normally chaotic Christmas to New Year period. The next bit was superbly orchestrated, because it took place at sea, far away from the prying eyes of dock spies or imaginary KGB agents. But oops, first you have to know who was involved.

    Out of Hong Kong rushed team one, comprised of the nuclear-powered USS Abraham Lincoln and her escort vessels, while the far more interesting team two rushed out of Guam, led by the USS Bonhomme Richard, a marine amphibious assault carrier crammed to the gunwales with gun-toting wooden tops. And that is not all, believe me, because the Bonhomme Richard is in fact leading a veritable armada known as "Expeditionary Strike Group 5". Flagship USS Bonhomme Richard is accompanied by the U.S.S. Duluth, an amphibious transport dock vessel; the USS Rushmore, a landing ship dock; the guided missile cruiser USS Bunker Hill, guided missile destroyer USS Milius, and the guided missile frigate USS Thach.

    To take care of the underwater side of things they are joined by the nuclear hunter-killer submarine USS Pasadena, while the U.S. Coast Guard's high-endurance cutter Munro is also tagging along, presumably to deal with Asian Customs and Excise.

    Now then, though 'Strike Group 5' may be toting enough nuclear weapons to destroy half of the known world, and the title is perhaps lacking when viewed from a strictly humanitarian perspective, engineer chief Staff Sgt. Julio C. Dominguez says otherwise: "The Marine Service Support Group has been preparing for a humanitarian mission of this type for about 12 months now, and is more prepared for an actual mission". Well, OK chief, but didn't you ask why you were being trained for a mysterious humanitarian mission a year before it actually happened, especially when your day job is normally shooting Muslims full of holes?

    The really sneaky (inexplicable) bit came as both battle groups entered the Indian Ocean. The USS Abraham Lincoln looked about as innocent as a carrier with 70 attack planes can look, but was already carrying 2,000 marines instead of her normal complement of around 500. That is a huge amount of grunt firepower to put on the deserted streets of Banda Aceh, especially when Wall Street normally expects these marines to die quietly for Zion in Iraq. Now then, how did they know the extra marines would be needed before team one left Hong Kong, because the surplus 1,500 marines were certainly not just standing around on Kowloon dock waiting to hitch a ride.

    Then while the two battle groups (apparently) headed in two different directions across the deserted Indian Ocean, an even stranger event took place. Though Expeditionary Strike Group 5 (Humanitarian) was supposed to help the folks in Sri Lanka, the combat marines aboard the USS Bonhomme Richard transferred to amphibious transport dock vessel U.S.S. Duluth, which then split from ESG-5 and headed towards team one. So without the Indonesians really being aware of it, the (relatively) harmless and Bulky aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln has been used to screen the arrival of at least 3,500 heavily-armed US Marines in tiny Aceh Province.

    Now if you had read part 3 and understood the navy's priorities, you would come to the same conclusion as we had. The Navy had no intention whatsoever of sending the medical / rescue helicopter to the purported crash location at Micronesia immediately after receiving news of the accident on 8 Jan 2005. The accident was a fake to cover the real accident somewhere else.

    MH-60S Knighthawk helicopter round-trip range limited to 225 n_miles.

    The round-trip limitation of 225 n_miles applies to open sea rescue operations with no landing facilities nearby. In offshore medivac / rescue operations, the helicopter would make use of nearby platforms or drilling vessels to make intermediate landing & refueling. Thus the one-way range of 450n_miles should be sufficient to reach the crash location and the nearby islands for refueling on the return journey. Even the option of launching the helicopter from a vessel is better than waiting 22 hours for the beleaguered submarine to leave the sheltered crash location and making a risky trip in the open ocean just to come within chopper range. The sea state in an open ocean can never be better than inter-island sea.

    In short there were several options including mid-air refueling, to make this limited round-trip range of 225 n_miles totally irrelevant. The helicopter transfer on 9 Jan was made between 200-230 n_miles from Guam, to underscore that point.

    If we apply the same helicopter rescue/medivac operation to an accident near the epicentre of the 2004 quake offshore Sumatra, again it makes sense. At 30 knots and some 25 hours later, the USS Abraham Lincoln leaving from Hong Kong would have been in range to send choppers to the crash location near Aceh. Refuelling mid-air, the choppers would have been able to reach the beleaguered submarine about 30 hours after the accident. These are just some conservative ball estimates. The US Navy rapid response system could certainly do better than that.

    It thus makes donkey sense for the Guam Naval Base Command to instruct the badly damaged USS San Francisco with more than 70 injured crew and heavily under-manned sub (1 in 5 unmanned) to make it home on its own. If they could instantly deploy an armada of carriers and its armed escorts to “assist Aceh victims” as we had seen 2 weeks earlier why not Micronesia?

    So what happened to the “we have been training for this rescue mission for the last 12 months” bull$hit? Either the US Navy value the “humanitarian rescue of the tsunami victims” over the :USS San Francisco & her crew”, or the accident at Micronesia was a fake meant to cover-up the real accident offshore Aceh.

    Chopper medivac delayed by bad weather.

    On the surface this again looks like a credible excuse. But dig deeper, you will see that this was irrelevant at the time of the decision.

    First there was no mention of adverse weather at the time of the accidental grounding or in the 12hours after. The first mention of deteriorating weather was on Sunday, 9 Jan 2005. This is to be expected. Inter-island water is always calmer than open ocean. If given a choice for rendezvous and medivac operations, one would always chose the former. Did the Guam Naval commander not know this? Of course he did. If the USS San Francisco was really grounded at Micronesia, any sane Naval Commander would have ordered the damaged submarine to stay put while an armada of vessels would be dispatched immediately to the crash location. Just as they did with the “instant humanitarian mission” which mobilised simultaneously out of Hong Kong and Guam. One is a fake and one is real. There is no prize for guessing which one was the real accident.

    Checking the different witnesses accounts, the original accounts of the accident offshore Sumatra on 26 Dec 2004 appeared to have been edited to fit the fake accident in Micronesia on 8 Jan 2005. Another coincidence and conspiracy? Think again.

    Then, poor weather on Sunday forced the captain to bring all his crewmen down from the bridge out of fear that any additional water coming down the hatch would cut further into the sub's limited buoyancy.

    “During the memorial and viewing on Saturday, CSS-15 provided a video from the coast guard of us on the surface and the SEAL/Dr. medical team being helo'd in, the family had this video played on 2 screens in thebackground. It was a sobering reminder of what a hard woman the ocean can be. We had to call off the helo because of the sea state, it was becoming too dangerous for the aircraft, we almost hit it with the sail a couple of times.

    The sea would not allow us to medivac in our condition and that sea state.”

    There was no mention of chopper rescue/medivac operations at all in the witnesses' accounts especially the skipper's; immediately after the fake accident on 8 Jan. It would have been discussed (as in all accidents) together with the weather conditions. If the weather did not permit, it would have been an important note in the witnesses' accounts. These are some of the most important questions in any emergency besides location (Lat & Long), casualties, extend of damage and emergency medical, essential equipment and parts supplies to be flown in as soon as possible. It is possible that this long list might not be made public, but if adverse weather had been a real factor, the witnesses' accounts couldn't have missed it.

    On the other hand DOOW's account clearly stated that the sea state at that time was too rough for the chopper transfer. Now you have to wonder whether he was referring to the chopper transfer operation on 9 January or the attempt heli rescue some 30 hours after the 11am (Guam time) 26 Dec 2004 quake. Read the caption accompanying the photo of the heli transfer in fig 164-6 carefully. The heli-transfer was never aborted. There was no mention of “calling off the helo” because of bad sea state.

    The weather on the morning of 9 Jan was certainly not calm flat but it was not real choppy either. The fact that the heli transfer was not aborted on 9 Jan confirms that the sea state was not bad enough for the operation to be aborted. So did DOOW lie?

    Probably not, but the spin writer who was not on the vessel. Otherwise he could not have made that kind of slip. He took a true account of what had happened on the 27 or 28 of Dec 2004 and transplanted it to the 9 Jan 2005 heli transfer. Do you see the slip?

    It was a sobering reminder of what a hard woman the ocean can be. We had to call off the helo because of the sea state, it was becoming too dangerous for the aircraft, we almost hit it with the sail a couple of times.

    The sea would not allow us to medivac in our condition and that sea state.”

    The above account describes more of a despair than joy. Despair at seeing the helicopters flying away as the sun sets and the uncertainty of waiting for the next chopper rescue. It is a typical disappointment many would have felt at the first sight of help that had to be aborted due to dangerous sea conditions; darkness and bad sea state. Imagine 30 hours of harrowing survival experience at sea; thousand of miles away from home. On 27 Dec 2004, the men were homesick, badly injured and desperate, not knowing whether they would be able to see their loved ones again.

    On 9 Jan, the beleaguered submarine was already escorted by at least 2 surface vessels when the chopper arrived. It was also a time of rejoice being a mere 200 odd n_miles from home. See the difference? If you had spent months at sea in a confined space, you understand the joy and relief on the last leg of the return journey. That magical feeling that everything is going to be alright.

    That despair feelings would better fit a damaged submarine stranded in an open ocean offshore Indonesia in Dec 2004. The DOOW was probably describing an even worse sea state on 27 Dec 2004, not the sea state on the morning of 9 Jan 2005. It was certainly not bad enough to cancel the heli transfer. If there was no medivac on 9 Jan, it was because there was no necessity. The boat would be in port the next day.

    But in the hours after the first chopper was sighted on 27 Dec evening, the medivac had to be postponed till the next morning after darkness set in. The injured crew had to spend another night in poor weather and in fear. See the perfect fit in the original description to the real emergency situation in a real accident that happened on 26 Dec 2004.

    Then, poor weather on Sunday forced the captain to bring all his crewmen down from the bridge out of fear that any additional water coming down the hatch would cut further into the sub's limited buoyancy.

    Note the "deteriorating weather" on the night of 9 Jan. Deteriorating means getting worse. That means on the 8 Jan the weather was better and not even considered in the decision not to send the medivac chopper. This weather issue was only an after thought to justify the medivac delay by almost 1 day.

    If the medivac was called off or aborted on 8 Jan due to bad weather that means the heli had arrived and returned to Guam. Eye witness accounts could not have missed out such an important event in a tragedy.

    Further if the weather at the crash location (sheltered by islands around it) was already bad then the sea state would have been worse in the open Pacific. Any seaman would know that. So why increase the risk and made things worse? A skipper with 19 years of exemplary service could not be this bad even if he tried.

    Given the deteriorating factor and the calmer inter island seas, the weather was definitely not an issue. So assuming even the weather was bad (just for argument sake), it would not hurt to fly the choppers to the nearby islands to wait for suitable weather. Unless a major storm was brewing (and that was not the case as shown by the photo), the weather (sea states) picks up and go down in hours. Sending a medical team to wait for a few hours definitely beat chopper transfer in the open sea and the 52 hours journey. If indeed the weather was deteriorating, there was even more reason to stay within the inter-island sea.

    Conflicting Accounts on the time of Allen Ashley's passing.

    I knew that Ash was severly injured and brought to the messdecks, he was one of my best men, and one of our best sailors onboard, he was like a son to me. After surfacing I was the control room supervisor, I had a boat to keep on the surface and fight and knew that if I went below to see how he was doing, it would teeter me on the brink of something that the ship did not need, the ship needed somebody who knew her.

    The damage to our sailors was almost all from them impacting into the equipment. The crew is a testament to training and watch team backup. When a casualty occurs, you fight like you train, and train like you fight. It kept us alive during that 2+day period.

    050109-N-0000X-001 Pacific Ocean (Jan. 9, 2005) – An MH-60S Knighthawk helicopter, assigned to the “Providers” of Helicopter Combat Support Squadron Five (HC-5), transfers medical personnel to USS San Francisco (SSN 711) located south of Guam, following an underwater collision, Jan. 8. Medical personnel were rushed to the Los Angeles attack submarine once it was within range to assist the ship’s independent duty Corpsman in providing urgent treatment to injured crew members. Regrettably, Machinist Mate 2nd Class Allen Ashley died soon after the medical team’s arrival from massive head injuries. U.S. Navy photo (RELEASED)

    HONOLULU, Jan. 9 — A sailor injured aboard a nuclear submarine that ran aground about 350 miles south of Guam died Sunday, the Navy said. Twenty-three other crew members were being treated for injuries.The USS San Francisco was headed back to its home port in Guam after sustaining severe damage on Saturday.

    The incident was under investigation, said Jon Yoshishige, a spokesman for the Pacific Fleet based at Pearl Harbor. The name of the sailor who died was being withheld pending a mandatory 24-hour waiting period, the Navy said. The sailor's next of kin had been notified. Lt. j.g. Adam Clampitt of the Pacific Fleet offered condolences early Sunday, saying ''anytime we lose a shipmate, it's a loss to the Navy.''

    Ashley, who was a machinist mate, suffered "significant trauma to the head" while he was working in one of the ship's engineering spaces, said Lt. Cmdr. Jeff Davis, spokesman for the U.S. Navy Pacific Submarine Force. He was initially in critical condition, but died Sunday afternoon. Ashley's family members have been notified of his death, but they are off island, Davis said.

    At 11:42 a.m. the following day, some of the sailors had begun to line up outside the mess deck for a lunch of hamburgers, french fries and baked beans. The duty watch had just changed, and Hutson was in the machinery room going over paperwork with a shipmate. Then the boat hit a bump. “We had the first little shudder, and then a second one,” Hutson said. “The second hit, I said, 'We're in trouble.' ” The San Francisco, cruising at 38 mph, ground to a halt, throwing Hutson several feet and slamming him against some machinery. Two officers fell in front of him.

    All the while, Cooter fought like the brave Sailor he was. Defying the odds, he lived far longer than expected for someone with his injuries. He peacefully left us the under the care of a Navy Doctor who had arrived aboard from a daring helicopter transfer just a few hours earlier.

    By official account, Allen Ashley died on Sunday afternoon 9 Jan 2005 after the “Emergency medical personnel, including a Naval Hospital Guam surgeon, Undersea Medical Officer and Independent Duty Corpsmen, arrived on the ship on the morning of 9 Jan via helicopter transfer to provide immediate medical care and prepare the crew member for medical evacuation on the morning of 9 January. Unfortunately, the sailor's condition deteriorated and he died onboard while under the care of the embarked physicians. Just moments prior to the sailors death, I spoke with the Sailor's father in preparation for their pending travel from Ohio to the West Pacific to see their Son. Since then I have passed on to his Dad my condolences on their son's death and reassured them their son's remains would be treated with utmost respect and dignity.”

    Another account stated that Lt.J.G. Adam Clampitt offered condolences early Sunday even before Ashley had actually passed away in the afternoon; the official time 13:13 hrs 9 Jan 2005.

    The sailor's next of kin had been notified. Lt. j.g. Adam Clampitt of the Pacific Fleet offered condolences early Sunday

    Akin said “hours later, a helicopter would bring a surgeon from Guam to try to treat Ashley, but it was to no avail. Ashley died the next day.” If the heli transfer was on 9 Jan, that means Ashley died on 10 Jan when the USS San Francisco was already in port. Makes one wonder why all the conflicting versions.

    Once Akin saw the extent of Ashley's wounds, he evacuated the other injured sailors into another improvised infirmary and kept Ashley, who was still alive but critically injured, in the mess hall. Hours later, a helicopter would bring a surgeon from Guam to try to treat Ashley, but it was to no avail. Ashley died the next day.

    Was Akin referring to an earlier chopper rescue on 27 Dec 2004? The chopper medivac might have been too dangerous and had to be aborted. But it was still possible to transfer medical expertise onboard. That could explain why 23 of the critically injured crew except 3 did not need hospitalisation. Could they have recovered so fast from such a serious accident in 2 days?

    If they were injured on 26 Dec 2004 and had been treated by the best field medical experts then it makes sense for the critically injured to recover in 2 weeks. There is no necessity to invoke “amazing recovery in 2 days” miracles. They were injured on a sinister covert operation that killed 230,000 innocent victims. Surely God would not approve let alone bless them with a miraculous recovery. Yes even if they were just following orders as all good soldiers do. Perhaps that is why God spared them so that 7 years later they could confess they have been ordered to lie by those higher in ranks.

    Almost two dozen others were injured so badly they could not perform their duties, though within days most were treated and released from the hospital in Guam. Most of the crew were treated for some injury.

    Dozens of crew members began coming in with injuries – broken bones, smashed faces, dislocated bones, head trauma, bruises, cuts, lacerations; in all, 70 sailors had sustained wounds.

    Machinist Mate 3rd Class Joseph Ashley was killed when he struck his head on a large pump. Almost two dozen others were injured so badly they could not perform their duties, though within days most were treated and released from a hospital in Guam. Most of the crew were treated for some injury.

    Another 97 of 137 crewmembers reported injuries ranging from minor bruising and muscle strains to two who suffered dislocated shoulders. Sixty-eight of them were evaluated and treated onboard, while the remaining 29 were treated at Naval Hospital Guam when San Francisco returned to port under its own power Jan. 10. Just three of them were admitted overnight for further evaluation and treatment.

    Ashley's parents were notified the death of their son 20 hours earlier.

    Navy man Joseph Ashley remembered for `Dixie' tune, big smile Sub accident leaves a void

    By Marilyn Miller, Beacon Journal staff writer

    The 24-year-old Navy man died Sunday after a submarine accident. The family was told Friday their son hit his head on a pump when the nuclear submarine he was stationed on ran aground about 350 miles from its home port in Guam.

    The Navy was preparing to fly Vicki and Dan Ashley to their son's bedside. They knew the injury was serious, but their son was holding on. On television Friday night, the parents watched and sympathized with the families of six soldiers who were killed in a car bombing in Iraq.

    ``I said those families would love to be in our position, because at least our son is alive,'' Dan Ashley said. They went to bed unsettled, but relieved. Vicki Ashley tossed and turned so much that night she moved to the couch in the living room to try to rest. ``I couldn't sleep, but when I saw a flash of lights from a car pulling into the driveway about 2 a.m., I knew my Joey was gone,'' she said.

    ``I looked out the window and saw two men dressed in uniform. I ran to tell my husband.'' The men confirmed her fears. ``I nodded to them to go ahead. I already knew what they had to say,'' said Dan Ashley, a former Navy man himself. They stood at attention and announced Machinist's Mate 2nd Class Ashley's death.

    It was then the parents learned their son died while medics prepared him for transport to a military hospital. He had never regained consciousness from the accident. The Navy has launched an investigation into the accident, in which 19 other sailors were injured.

    The time difference between Ohio (EST) and Guam is 1500hrs. The accident supposedly happened at 1143 hrs 8 Jan 2005 (Guam Time). That would be 2043hrs on Friday 7 Jan (EST). Ashley's parents were officially informed of Ashley's death on Sat 8 Jan 0200hrs EST which was 1700hrs Sat 8 Jan 2005 (Guam Time) or just 5 hours after the purported accident.

    The official reported time of death was 1313 hrs Sun 9 Jan (Guam Time) or 2213 hrs Sat 8 Jan 2005 EST; which is 20 hours later. Could the Navy have notified the parents 20 hours earlier when Ashley was still alive?

    Is that why “The sailor's next of kin had been notified” when Lt. J.G. Adam Clampitt of the Pacific Fleet offered his condolences early Sunday?

    At 0904 the Seal Dr, The Seal HM2, and medical equipment were trnasfered to the San Fran. Efforts were made to transfer MM2 Ashley, but were unsuccessful. Ashley was pronounced dead at 1311.

    But why would the navy lie even on Ashley's time of death? Ashley probably died 25 ½ hours after the accident on 26 Dec 2004. The Navy could not inform the parents the truth as it would expose the whole scam. They had to adjust the time his death with the new fake accident on 8 Jan. So when the doctors from Guam Naval hospital arrived on the morning of 9 Jan 2005, they found a dead cold body of Ashley. Of course they were told to hush up just like anybody who was involved in the rescue mission.

    Naturally the USS San Francisco port departure on 7 Jan 2005 from Guam and the 3 Jan 20005 phone call Ashley was supposed to make from Guam never happened. It would have been easy for the Navy to produce confidential logs and records to show these two important events. But they did not think it was necessary since the world had already accepted the “accident at Micronesia” story. It would also be absurd to show the confidential records to substantiate these 2 events out of the blues. Any records they show now are likely to be fake than authentic.

    A real accident on 26 Dec offshore Sumatra and a fake coverup accident at Micronesoa would make sense

    Story by Zita Taitano January 9, 2005

    The running aground of the U.S.S. San Francisco about 350 miles to the south of Guam on Saturday afternoon resulted in 20 injured sailors. The Los Angeles-class fast attack submarine was conducting submerged operations when the incident occurred. U.S. Navy spokesperson Lieutenant Arwen Consaul confirms the sailors were injured, one of which critically so, and that they are being treated by medical personnel onboard the submarine.

    It also appears more help is on the way thanks to the U.S. Coast Guard. Spokesperson Petty Officer Jennifer Johnson of the Coast Guard District 14 Public Affairs Office in Hawaii says the USCG Cutter Galveston Island is on its way to the submarine with a team of medical personnel to help treat the injured sailors. "The Coast Guard's priority is safety at sea and its ability to respond is our priority and we're happy that we could help when our assistance was needed," said Johnson.

    The US Navy's acclaimed rapid-advanced rescue respond is unrivaled anywhere in the world. No cost is too high when it involves the lives of American servicemen. Perhaps the answers lie in the awards and punishments meted out to the crew. Isn't it a bit of an irony to praise and yet punished them. Given a choice the Navy would have awarded them all medals; for not only surviving an ordeal arising from a secret deep sea mission, but in performing it exceptionally well. The accident was unavoidable being so close to the epicentre of one of the largest earthquakes in human history.

    But their heroic efforts especially Commander Moore, cannot be publicly acknowledged. Yet he must be punished publicly for a surprisingly “stupid” mistake which no competent crew could have committed under normal circumstances let alone on a non-combat leisure cruise. They had to be sacrificed and punished publicly after an initial hesitation. Not to do so would arouse public suspicion of a fake accident.

    You have to believe “Pigs can fly” before believing this fake high speed collision. The official report stated that 24-year-old Ashley's death and the injury of the other crew members were in the line of duty and not due to misconduct. "Earlier evacuation or arrival of medical officers would not have changed the outcome for (Petty Officer) Ashley" the investigation said of the two additional medical personnel flown aboard by helicopter and two attempts to medically evacuate him by helicopter”.

    Two attempts to medically evacuate him by helicopter? There was no report of medivac on the day of the accident just 360 n_miles from Guam. There was only one heli-transfer on the morning of 9 Jan. “Some of his shipmates cursed and cried in frustration” described a seemingly hopeless situation against all odds. Sounds a lot more like “the desperate situation of a damaged vessel stranded alone in the middle of the ocean” than a vessel being escorted by several rescue boats and a successful heli-transfer of medical personnel onboard.

    The highest awards, the Navy's Meritorious Service Medal, went to Hospitalman 1st Class James H. Akin, the ship's "doc," and Lt. j.g. Craig E. Litty for organizing the crew's mess into an emergency trauma center and providing triage to more than 70 injured sailors over two days. "When initial medical supplies were expended, (they) devised innovative methods to provide continued oxygen and other first aid treatment," the citation reads. The citation also credited their "accurate diagnoses of injuries and exacting recommendations" for treatment.

    The 24-year-old Ashley, of Akron Ohio, died from the collision and another 97 of the 137 crewmembers reported injuries ranging from minor bruising and muscle strains to two who suffered dislocated shoulders. According to the report; Ashley's head injury was inevitably critical. His death and the injury of the other crewmembers were in the line of duty and not due to misconduct.

    Again the description fit more of the rescue attempts (medivac) using choppers from one of the advancing battleship in the Strike Force 5 armada. The tale of 2 submarine accidents (one fake & one real) still perplexes military experts around the world.

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0JIW/is_1_61/ai_n24959889/pg_2/?tag=content;col1

    Even though the Chinese navy evidently has extreme respect for the U.S. submarine force, the analyses of the San Francisco incident appear to show awareness that even this elite force can make errors and must invest in cutting-edge rescue technologies.

     

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    BK Lim

    This has been a big puzzle to all. Let's see how AWM explains this.

    As if by magic, the Pentagon managed to have two battle groups ready to sail at an instant's notice from Hong Kong and Guam during the normally chaotic Christmas to New Year period. The next bit was superbly orchestrated, because it took place at sea, far away from the prying eyes of dock spies or imaginary KGB agents. But oops, first you have to know who was involved.

    Out of Hong Kong rushed team one, comprised of the nuclear-powered USS Abraham Lincoln and her escort vessels, while the far more interesting team two rushed out of Guam, led by the USS Bonhomme Richard, a marine amphibious assault carrier crammed to the gunwales with gun-toting wooden tops. And that is not all, believe me, because the Bonhomme Richard is in fact leading a veritable armada known as "Expeditionary Strike Group 5". Flagship USS Bonhomme Richard is accompanied by the U.S.S. Duluth, an amphibious transport dock vessel; the USS Rushmore, a landing ship dock; the guided missile cruiser USS Bunker Hill, guided missile destroyer USS Milius, and the guided missile frigate USS Thach.

    • 10 votes
    #1 - Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:48 PM EDT
    AngryWhiteMan63Deleted
    BK Lim

    deleted ...observe COH please

    • 11 votes
    #1.2 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:11 AM EDT
    BK Lim

    Obviously AWM is hoping mad because he cannot hide the big elephant in the room. Go ahead focus on the small mouse issues. There is a lot more coming.

    Happy ranting but please watch your blood pressure.

    • 11 votes
    #1.3 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:12 AM EDT
    AngryWhiteMan63Deleted
    AngryWhiteMan63

    What about that phone call on the 3rd BK?

    • 1 vote
    #1.5 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:17 AM EDT
    AngryWhiteMan63

    Go ahead focus on the small mouse issues

    Are we to just believe your nonesense when you cannot answere the "small mouse" issues?

    • 1 vote
    #1.6 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:20 AM EDT
    BK Lim

    There is no need to respond to fabricated events that cannot be proven publicly. The number of repeated posts on the same lie without new concrete evidence just show you are running out of ammo. Same as the Nazi Propaganda isn't it. Repeat a lie many times, and it get accepted.

    Or make the Lie so Big, so amazing that the truth pales by comparison.

    “We lie loudest when we lie to ourselves.” Eric Hoffer quotes (American Writer, 1902-1983)

    • 10 votes
    #1.7 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:28 AM EDT
    AngryWhiteMan63

    HA! It's repeated because it's the one smoking gun that blows the biggest hole in your fairy tail. SO your answer is the PARENTS LIED? Is that your answer BK? This is your dilemma with a Conspiracy BK. You cannot just ignore the facts that get presented, no matter how small YOU want them to be. You have to account for the minutia to make the big picture work. So Go ahead, say it. You've managed to denigrate the crew, denigrate the rescue operation, now YOU go ahead and denigrate the PARENTS BK. Say they lied. Say they were involved in the coverup. It's the only answer YOU can come up with.

    • 1 vote
    #1.8 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:35 AM EDT
    AngryWhiteMan63

    There is no need to respond to fabricated events that cannot be proven publicly.

    It was published in your source you quoted BK. By a reporter in Ohio, not the Navy. If it was fabricated, then it casts your entire source in question.

    You can't have it both ways BK. Either the source is valid, and thus all they say is valid, or the entire source is suspect. You don't get to pick just parts of it that fit your fairy tail, and discard the rest that don't.

    Ha ha ha ha. I am really laughing about this now BK. You have just shown to me that you have no investigative skills, and your analytical skills are highly questionable. If you only pick and choose that evidence that you want to work, ignoring that which doesn't, you become nothing more than a rank amateur.

    • 1 vote
    #1.9 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:42 AM EDT
    BK Lim

    Amazingly AWM doesn't sleep or AWM is manned by a bunch of trolls on a 24/7 basis. They seem to have all the new fabricated evidence at an instant. Makes you wonder why they would spend so much time and effort on my articles which they kept yelling "ridiculous and no basis" (sorry have to change the terms they used to comply with NV COH). You would have thought they would ignore it altogether. So what gives?

    So keep cool and happy ranting. The lies

    • 10 votes
    #1.10 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:55 AM EDT
    AngryWhiteMan63

    Here's BK's source document quoted in the article:

    ``I nodded to them to go ahead. I already knew what they had to say,'' said Dan Ashley, a former Navy man himself. They stood atat tention and announced Machinist's Mate 2nd Class Ashley's death.

    It was then the parents learned their son died while medics prepared him for transport to a military hospital. He had never regained consciousness from the accident. The Navy has launched an investigation into the accident, in which 19 other sailors were injured.

    His parents will now fly to Guam for a memorial service with his shipmates and commanders. A second memorial service will be held in Canal Fulton, when their son is brought home.

    Machinist's Mate 2nd Class Ashley was about 5 feet 11 inches tall with blond hair, blue eyes and a big smile.

    ``When he had his heart set on something, he would try his best to get it done,'' said his mother. ``I always told him to do what he wanted to do in life, but to be the best at it and to always try his hardest.''

    He attended Stark State College of Technology for a year and took welding classes, but he couldn't find a welding job after he got certified.

    One day he came home and shared his future plans.

    ``He said, `Mom I passed the Navy test; I'm going to do what daddy did. He always excelled in what he did.' ''

    He made rank in minimal time and was named Junior Sailor of the Year for the entire Guam naval base.

    ``He loved the Navy, and he loved his country. He just signed up for another four years. He said he was young and wanted to make a career out of it,'' she said. He had just completed the fourth year of his original 5-year enlistment.

    His father spent eight years in the Navy. His grandfather, also named Joseph, was in the U.S. Army during World War II. Machinist's Mate 2nd Class Ashley and his grandfather talked often because he was also stationed in the South Pacific during his time in the service.

    Machinist's Mate 2nd Class Ashley wasn't afraid to share his feelings with his family. He called at least once a month to share what he was doing and to find out what other families were doing. There was never a time he called that he didn't tell family members how much he loved them.

    The family last talked to him on Jan 3. He was excited about coming home in March -- his first visit home in 18 months.

    His father had just recently made airplane reservations.

    BK didn't want to post the part about the phone call. It blows holes in his theory. He doesn't want to face the truth. He wants you to believe that that was made up byt the Navy, when in fact it was an article written from an interview with his parents. But the truth doesn't fit his fantasy, so he ignores it.

    • 1 vote
    #1.11 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:58 AM EDT
    AngryWhiteMan63

    They seem to have all the new fabricated evidence at an instant.

    Ha! It was given to you days ago in the other article. Nice try BK. Continue to deflect. Avoid the TRUTH.

    • 1 vote
    #1.12 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:00 AM EDT
    AngryWhiteMan63

    You would have thought they would ignore it altogether. So what gives?

    Thought about it. But it' too much fun blasting gaping holes in your fairy tail. Besides, the crew of the San Fran, and especially MM2 Ashley deserve to have someone on their side to defend them against your lies.

    • 1 vote
    #1.13 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:04 AM EDT
    LT student

    Aw BK Just delete AWM comments...inflamatory rantings. No value whatsoever to an interesting article. We shuld have the freedom of lookin at the terrible tsunami from a fresh angle without the harrassment. Who is this AWM anyway?

    Keep the good work. Enjoy yr articles and don't get distracted by these trolls.

    • 10 votes
    #1.14 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:39 AM EDT
    BK Lim

    Thanks LT. No I want the world to see how desperate he or his group is.

    I will take my time to answer some of his more legitimate accusations. The rest are just harrassment. So how to prove harrassment ...well the records will show. Reasonable people ask and wait patiently for the reply.

    His aim is to distract and try to bury the truth. It is very clear now. I mean if he has got so much material to debunk why not write his own article? It is because nobody will bother to read the pro-navy lies anymore. Hope you understand.

    • 10 votes
    #1.15 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:07 AM EDT
    AngryWhiteMan63

    See, here's where BK looses all credibility:

    Oh yeah and he called last saturday and said this article is fantastic. You want us to believe a line that was published in a blog no one reads. That blog you quoted only 1,847 visitors to date since it was setup in 2002 presumably by sub veterans like you (your buddies right?).

    You call that independent? Look out for the next article featuring you guess who. Keep up your harrassment. It shows you are losing it.

    For those who are keeping score, the article BK uses as a source above can be found here:

    http://subveteran.org/SSN%20711/SONAR%2020%20JAN%202005.pdf

    The portion BK quotes above is on page 3 and 4. Now BK states "a line that was published in a blog no one reads" and "You call that independent?" What BK fails to realize is that this is a reprint of an article that appeared in the Akron Ohio Beacon Journal, by Marilyn Miller. Thus BK tries to pass off a newspaper article as nothing more than a blog, yet he quotes newspaper article after articlein his attempt to fabricate a conspiracy. (Not to mention, he quotes a little known blog as well, which he uses as absolute truth).

    What's even more astonishing for those of us who have a clue, BK quotes portions of this newspaper article above, in an attempt to prove a point about the time of death of MM2 Ashely. But the part of the article that makes this whole discussion moot, BK wants us to believe is nothing more than the rantings of a blogger. It's tough when the truth rears it's ugly head and slaps you in the face BK.

    Notice how at first BK attempts to write it off as lies by the Navy:

    It would have been easy for the Navy to produce confidential logs and records to show these two important events.

    Then when he is made aware that these are statements by the parents, he attempts to make them general lies, by the parents:

    There is no need to respond to fabricated events that cannot be proven publicly. The number of repeated posts on the same lie without new concrete evidence just show you are running out of ammo.

    And again when he is called on this, and asked to clarify if he is calling the Parents of MM2 Ashely liars, he attempts to pass it off as the rantings of a blogger. Too bad BK. That wont work either. They are statements of the parents, in an independent interview by the newspaper, and part of public record.

    So BK would want us to believe part of the article, that part that shows some confusion on the date and notification of the parents, but to dismiss other parts of the article, where the parents say Ashely phoned home on the 3rd of January. And why? Because this truth shoots big howitzer sized holes in BK's conspiracy.

    BK cannot account for this and maintain his conspiracy, so it must be a lie. Notice how anything that doesn't fit his conspiracy is a lie. Let's go back to a statement BK made:

    There is no need to respond to fabricated events that cannot be proven publicly. The number of repeated posts on the same lie without new concrete evidence just show you are running out of ammo.

    Let's concentrate on the portion where BK says "fabricated events that cannot be proven publicly". On numerous occasions, I have challenged BK to provide public proof that the San Fran left Guam at any time between Dec 1 and Jan 7th. We know, and BK has admitted that the San Fran arrived in port on Dec 1st. But BK has not provided proof that the sub left any time before Jan 7th. Thus BK would ask us to believe in a " fabricated event that cannot be proven publicly"

    So I would say to you BK: I have provided proof that your theory is bunk. Ashely called home on the 3rd of January, and that cannot fit your timeline. Thus your insistence that the San Fran was at sea on the 26th of December is false, and "repeated posts on the same lie without new concrete evidence just show you are running out of ammo."

    • 1 vote
    #1.16 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:31 PM EDT
    AngryWhiteMan63

    Cue the crickets.

    • 1 vote
    #1.17 - Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:13 AM EDT
    Joe-1680982

    To Whom It May Concern:

    First off, I’m not a Sailor; I’m an ex-Air Force aviator. My late father, however was a Sailor (USS Albany) and his father was a career U.S. Merchant Marine (30 years). In fact, my entire family genealogy going back to ‘old’ Europe is composed of Sailors at one time or another in service to ‘King and Country’.

    Having said that, the only thing that really matters here (regardless of branch of service as we’re all on the same team) is: Did this event actually happen or not? All indications are that it did.

    The central issue that BK is seeking to inform us of is the Navy’s subsequent conduct after the explosion aboard the USS San Francisco. I understand the importance of the correctness of references when submitting a personal article but given the magnitude of what happened aboard the San Francisco, I think a little latitude is not out of line.

    The Navy (and the Pentagon as a whole) is notorious for changing ‘uncomfortable’ details about certain events when said events become embarrassing to the powers-that-be or if they deem it necessary to pursue ulterior motives and agendas (i.e.-the delay and deliberate mischaracterization of the original Navy ‘emergency distress’ cables that became The Gulf of Tonkin Incident which led to The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution to justify the War in Viet Nam; The Pat Tillman Scandal of the Army to cover up the fact that he was killed by one of his own men at point-blank range in a minor skirmish instead of ‘heroically’ in a ‘major firefight’). And it would be naive to think that they do not also exercise this strategy of intercepting, delaying, changing and/or suppressing information from civilian sources about a given event under the familiar guise of ‘National Security’ as demonstrated by BK’s article and others he has submitted about the events aboard the San Francisco.

    In the end, if the pictures and reports from the various sources provided by BK are not proof enough of DoD’s indifference, negligence and dishonorable conduct to the crew of the USS San Francisco when they needed them most, then may I suggest to all ‘non-believers’ who believe or imply that the legitimacy and/or validity of an event and/or personal article is only possible when sources are ‘correct’, that they seek counseling from those professionals where part of the office furniture includes a nice soft couch.

    You should be helping BK with his sources and references instead of posturing and taking the false high ground to scold him for what is, at worse, an oversight.

    Great article, BK... By the way, I’ve read all of your articles (USS San Francisco).

    E Pluribus Unum!

    • 2 votes
    #1.18 - Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:59 AM EST
    BK Lim

    Thank you Joe. Spoken like a true soldier. I believe Commander Mooney and the others were unfairly punished for doing their duties while the top guys escaped without a scratch.

    In the course of researching BP Mega Oil spill disaster, the USS San Francisco story landed on my desk. Is there any connection? I believe so. Is there a parallel plot or modus operandi? Yes.

    I have temporarily stop posting to let the readers catch up, before we release some important findings on the BP blowout which will actually blow your mind.

    Plan A did not go according to plan. So plan B was used to detonate the 2nd more powerful blowout to cause the mega oil spill. Otherwise the Macondo Blowout would have remain just a normal blowout with limited long term consequences. Personnel who were involved are being disposed of or are in hiding. Triggering a mega disaster or any disaster for that matter, is morally wrong for whatever their objective, especially for mega windfalls during peace time.

    • 3 votes
    #1.19 - Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:46 AM EST
    Joe-1680982

    BK Lim, comment # 1.19:

    “...release some important findings on the BP blowout...”

    I’ll definitely keep an eye out for ‘em, BK, and I’ve no doubt they’ll be ‘top-shelf’.

    • 2 votes
    #1.20 - Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:17 AM EST
    Reply
    AngryWhiteMan63

    Hey BK. How did Ashley phone home on the 3rd if he was at sea (or dead as you have previusly stated) limping home from your fantasy nuke explosion?

    • 1 vote
    Reply#2 - Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:55 PM EDT
    AngryWhiteMan63

    Hey BK! Why do you not have any evidence that the sub left port before Jan 7th? We've seen reports that the sub arrived in port on Dec 1st, and departed Jan 7th. Do you have any proof that the sub left before then?

    • 1 vote
    Reply#3 - Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:57 PM EDT
    AngryWhiteMan63

    Hey BK. Do you have the official report of the grounding? Have you read the timeline of events? Did you see the video I provided for you that showed the sea states at the time? Have you done any investigation to prove your rediculous claim?

    • 1 vote
    Reply#4 - Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:59 PM EDT
    AngryWhiteMan63

    Hey BK. My buddy from the San Fran is sending me pics from the Dec 23 party they had at the club on base. Also, he has proof of some of his men flying home during Christmas stand down Dec 23 - Jan 3. When I get that, should I send it to you? You know, pics of familys at Christmas and so forth. How's that going to fit into your time frame here?

    • 1 vote
    Reply#5 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:05 AM EDT
    BK Lim

    What your buddy does is none of our concern and interest? The more you post the more it shows.....the desperation I mean. The truth finally explodes 7 years later and you are desperately covering it with what? .....more lies?

    • 10 votes
    #5.1 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:31 AM EDT
    AngryWhiteMan63

    Are you calling me a liar BK?

    • 1 vote
    #5.2 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:43 AM EDT
    AngryWhiteMan63

    What your buddy does is none of our concern and interest?

    And there you have it. When confronted with the possibility of evidence that clearly will show this article to be a sham, it becomes "none of our concern." That of course means you are not interested in the truth BK. The truth does not fit with your conspiracy, so you have no concern for the truth.

    That was probobly the most telling post you have made to date BK. That post right there has defined your character. And it is lacking sir.

    • 1 vote
    #5.3 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:47 AM EDT
    BK Lim

    you can call yourself what ever, who cares?

    • 10 votes
    #5.4 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:19 AM EDT
    Reply
    AngryWhiteMan63

    The fact that the navy did not rush military, medical and engineering assistance to the grounded multi-billion nuclear submarine just 360 n_miles away from its Guam base is one big puzzling mystery.

    Yes, they did. Within 30 minutes of the OPREP-3 Navy Blue, Medical personel were alerted, summoned to Squadron headquaters, and plans were put in place to get help to the sub. As I've stated before, Seal Team one was cunsulted and actually provided the Doctor and Corpsman that went to the subs aid. But you've ignored all of that.

    The delayed medivac (actually there was none on official record)

    A: This is bull -@!$%#

    B: How would you know, you've said that you haven't read the official report. I have it, and yes there was a Medivac provided (Hint: look at your picture).

    To recap, (we said in part 3) an immediate medivac / rescue operation to render urgent medical attention to 23 seriously injured men would have been top priority in any major accident whether in Micronesia or offshore Sumatra. The fact that the navy did not rush military, medical and engineering assistance to the grounded multi-billion nuclear submarine just 360 n_miles away from its Guam base is one big puzzling mystery.

    Uh, yes they did. The Galvaston Island and Stockhom were sent out to provide assistance. The Stockhom took HC-5 elements onboard to Helo the help to the Sub when it got there. The Galvaston Island arrived at 0430 that morning, but sea states were too heavy to try and transfer a doctor in the dark. When it got light, the sea states were still too heavy, and by that time the Stockhom was within range, so they opted for the Helo transfer. You can see how rough the sea state is in the video I provided to you.

    In offshore medivac / rescue operations, the helicopter would make use of nearby platforms or drilling vessels to make intermediate landing & refueling.

    First, how many of these are available between the location of the sub and Guam? Have you done any research to determine this? Second, as I've stated before, the US Navy does not land a warbird on a foriegn field and ask for gas without State Department involvement. It just doesn't happen BK. I don't expect you to understand this, since you ahve never served in the US Navy and have no clue how the US Navy operates.

    On that note, While the Stockhome and Galvaston Island were sortied to provide aid, The USS Kiska was sortied to provide a lilly pad for refueling on the planned return trip of the helo with Ashley on it.

    Even the option of launching the helicopter from a vessel is better than waiting 22 hours for the beleaguered submarine to leave the sheltered crash location and making a risky trip in the open ocean just to come within chopper range.

    Do your homework BK. This is exactly what the did.

    In short there were several options including mid-air refueling,

    Not with these Helicopters.

    It thus makes donkey sense for the Guam Naval Base Command to instruct the badly damaged USS San Francisco with more than 70 injured crew and heavily under-manned sub (1 in 5 unmanned) to make it home on its own. If they could instantly deploy an armada of carriers and its armed escorts to “assist Aceh victims” as we had seen 2 weeks earlier why not Micronesia?

    Uh, because they were all assisting the Aceh victims. How about it BK. Did you do any research to see what assets were still available in Guam at the time? Here's a simple question for you. How many submarines were stationed in Guam at the time? Do you even know that?

    Either the US Navy value the “humanitarian rescue of the tsunami victims” over the :USS San Francisco & her crew”, or the accident at Micronesia was a fake meant to cover-up the real accident offshore Aceh.

    Neither. They provided the assistance required based on the assets at hand at the time. Now you're just making stuff up to fit your theory. Wait, you've been doing that the whole time. Never mind.

    Inter-island water is always calmer than open ocean.

    Do you know what the weather was at the time in that location? Never mind, it doesn't matter. Again you do not understand submarine operations, so you would not know that in this case, the sub had to get back as soon as possible. It could not loiter in any area to wait on help to arrive. This is a moot point anyway, since all you can do is speculate about weather in this part of the ocean. I would caution you, that you will need to prove this claim of calmer weather if this is to be believed.

    There was no mention of chopper rescue/medivac operations at all in the witnesses' accounts especially the skipper's; immediately after the fake accident on 8 Jan. It would have been discussed (as in all accidents) together with the weather conditions. If the weather did not permit, it would have been an important note in the witnesses' accounts. These are some of the most important questions in any emergency besides location (Lat & Long), casualties, extend of damage and emergency medical, essential equipment and parts supplies to be flown in as soon as possible. It is possible that this long list might not be made public, but if adverse weather had been a real factor, the witnesses' accounts couldn't have missed it.

    Again this is Bull @!$%#. If you had read the investigation, it was discussed numerous times.

    Now you have to wonder whether he was referring to the chopper transfer operation on 9 January or the attempt heli rescue some 30 hours after the 11am (Guam time) 26 Dec 2004 quake. Read the caption accompanying the photo of the heli transfer in fig 164-6 carefully. The heli-transfer was never aborted. There was no mention of “calling off the helo” because of bad sea state.

    Nothing to wonder about, he's talking about 9 January. And again, because you do not understand submarines, you do not understand his meaning. Normal transfers of a stretcher from a sub is through the Weapons Shipping hatch forward of the sail. Since the sub had damage to its two forward ballast tanks, it had no freeboard forward of the sail, thus opening that hatch in the rough sea state would have had water pouring in. Once they determined that the stretcher could not get through the bridge hatch, and the sea state so rough that they could not go through the Weapons Shipping hatch, the Helo transfer was called off. Again, all of this is evident in the video I provided you. Did you even look at it?

    The weather on the morning of 9 Jan was certainly not calm flat but it was not real choppy either. The fact that the heli transfer was not aborted on 9 Jan confirms that the sea state was not bad enough for the operation to be aborted. So did DOOW lie?

    Probably not, but the spin writer who was not on the vessel. Otherwise he could not have made that kind of slip. He took a true account of what had happened on the 27 or 28 of Dec 2004 and transplanted it to the 9 Jan 2005 heli transfer. Do you see the slip?

    No, you want it to be a slip, but it's not. You just have no clue about the subject you are writting about.

    That despair feelings would better fit a damaged submarine stranded in an open ocean offshore Indonesia in Dec 2004. The DOOW was probably describing an even worse sea state on 27 Dec 2004, not the sea state on the morning of 9 Jan 2005. It was certainly not bad enough to cancel the heli transfer. If there was no medivac on 9 Jan, it was because there was no necessity

    Note the "deteriorating weather" on the night of 9 Jan. Deteriorating means getting worse. That means on the 8 Jan the weather was better and not even considered in the decision not to send the medivac chopper. This weather issue was only an after thought to justify the medivac delay by almost 1 day.

    No, it means the weather deteriorated to the point the Bridge hatch had to be shut. Do you know anything about submarines? Do you know how high up the bridge hatch is? Do you know how BAD the weather has to get for waves to reach that high? Look at the video and get a clue.

    Once Akin saw the extent of Ashley's wounds, he evacuated the other injured sailors into another improvised infirmary and kept Ashley, who was still alive but critically injured, in the mess hall.

    Akin was the ship's Corpsman. That occured on the 8th.

    But why would the navy lie even on Ashley's time of death? Ashley probably died 25 ½ hours after the accident on 26 Dec 2004.

    BUT BK! I thought you didn't trust that report? You said it was suspect because it was a pdf created with a version later than the date it says it was created? Oh wait, you believe it when there is a conflict within in it that fits you theory of "The Navy Lied". Okay. So it is not suspect anymore. Good. Then aswere this:

    The family last talked to him on Jan 3. He was excited about coming home in March -- his first visit home in 18 months.

    Now hold on a second. That statement was also in that source you quoted. But BK, if he called home on the 3rd, that would mean they were in port on the third. And it would mean that he didn't die on the 26th like so want him to have died. How is that BK? How can your source conveinently fit your theory in one paragraph, but shoot hole in it in another? Tell me BK, how did he call home on the 3rd if he was DEAD?

    Naturally the USS San Francisco port departure on 7 Jan 2005 from Guam and the 3 Jan 20005 phone call Ashley was supposed to make from Guam never happened. It would have been easy for the Navy to produce confidential logs and records to show these two important events.

    Oh I see. They lied. But wait, it was THE PARENTS who mentioned the phone call. Did the Navy somehow convince them to lie about it BK? Think about that. Your son was just killed in an accident, and the Navy wants you to lie about it. Would you do it BK? Would you lie to cover up for the US Navy? Do you think they would?

    And it's very convenient for you fairy tale to say one part of the article was a lie, but the rest of it is true. Very convenient indeed. You ignore or write off evidence as lies to fit your conspiracy. And of course this is always the case with conspiracies. No matter how much they are proven wrong, once they are up against evidence that doesn't fit the theory, they write it off as lies. So when my friend comes on here and tells you you are wrong, are you going to call him a liar BK? When a San Fran Sailor gets on this board, and tells you this theory is a fairy tail, will you call him a liar?

    • 1 vote
    Reply#6 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:20 AM EDT
    DDearborn

    Hmmm

    One fact is clear in this discussion. The United States Military has been repeatedly caught lying to the American people about casualties and accidents in general. This dates all the way back to WWI. So the idea that the Navy lied to cover up a reactor problem on a nuclear sub is certainly plausable. And soldiers, sailors and airmen are ORDERED to lie to the public to aid in covering up on a regular basis.

    The old "its classified" and "need to know" card is brought out and soldiers do their duty and lie. It is what it is. This is not to say that a cover up happened in this case. But lets consider to what lenghts the navy is willing to lie to hide the truth from the American people. Take a good long hard look at the USS LIBERTY attack by Israel. After you have spent some time on that one, I wonder how many out there will still believe that the Navy doesn't lie?

     

     

    • 10 votes
    Reply#7 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:10 AM EDT
    BK Lim

    DDearborn

    You hit the nail on the head. It is about the lies. And because they can get away with it, it spreads to all segment of society. Where does it end? At wall street. When it all hits the pockets and the stomachs empty, that when.

    • 11 votes
    #7.1 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:20 AM EDT
    AngryWhiteMan63

    SHhhhhh DDearborn! Don't mention the LIBERTY! BK can't understand Submarines, the Liberty would make his head explode!

    • 2 votes
    #7.2 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:26 AM EDT
    AngryWhiteMan63Deleted
    AngryWhiteMan63Deleted
    TR-421173

    IRY.

    Isn't that cute, you seem to have picked up your own stalker troll.

    • 5 votes
    #7.5 - Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:19 AM EDT
    BK Lim

    I seem to be blessed by them. How lucky?

    • 5 votes
    #7.6 - Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:12 PM EDT
    Reply
    AngryWhiteMan63Deleted
    Landon Lau

    I would point out some more flaws in this story since I was in the area of operation at the time, but AngryWhiteGuy is doing a flawless job so far.

    • 1 vote
    Reply#9 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:08 PM EDT
    Jaybao

    AngryWhiteGuy is doing a flawless job so far.

    you must be jokin right? I just wonder whether any of you had read the article in earnest. BK did a wonderful job of connecting San Fran accident with the armada of warships rushed out of Hong Kong and Guam. I for one thought it strange at that time. Now it makes sense. I say one thing. BK got balls. You guys just carry the navy's balls.

    • 11 votes
    Reply#10 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:36 PM EDT
    Johnny Genlock

    AWM,

    From one angle I can understand your anger. From another angle I'm wondering why every time the truth gets up on its hind legs and begins to be heard, someone is there to put it down again. C'mon, how stupid do you believe everybody out here really is?

    * * * * * * * * *

    It is already established that the USS San Francisco made several "friendly" port visits to Indonesia and the rest of the region. The question remains, however, as to when the Pentagon will acknowledge its attack submarine's role in the devastating earthquake-tsunami.
    In 58-year-old documents stamped 'Top Secret', which were declassified by the New Zealand government and publicized in the New Zealand Herald on June 30, 2000, the World War II-era Pentagon is seen enthusiastically pursuing the creation of a 'tsunami-bomb' whose potential use 'could...play a role [in war] as important' as that of the two atomic bombs detonated over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan. The tsunami-bomb project was named Project Seal, and involved numerous New Zealander, British, Australian, and United States government and private scientists. Small-scale versions of the tsunami-bomb were tested off the coast of Auckland, New Zealand in 1944 and 1945.
    Last year's tsunami-quake center was placed a few miles offshore from Banda Aceh, a poor island province of Indonesia which has sought freedom from the US-allied Muslim government. The Banda-Aceh region suffered about 90,000 deaths - more than any other of 11 nations struck by the murder waves.
    In another supposedly happenstance coincident, two NASA-coordinated observer satellites, nicknamed Jason and Poseidon (Greek sea-god) happened to be flying directly above Indonesia as the tsunami waves were making their way toward some 300,000 hapless villagers. The data recorded by the two orbitting instruments was the first-ever live satellite surveillance of a tsunami.
    Despite the apparent outpouring of relief aid coming from the US Government and NGOs, critics say that the real effort underway in the devastated areas is a corporate land-grab crusade, against which the native fishing villagers are helpless, having had all their personal documentation swept away that fateful day after X-mas. It has been reported that Western corporations - many of which owned palatial tourism resorts on the tsunami-affected coasts - are striking "reconstruction" deals with the governments, effectively barring the native citizens from large swaths of land in an effort to capitalize on the disaster.
    A few weeks after the tsunami, Pentagon head Donald Rumsfeld declared surface nuclear warheads "obsolete."

    * * * * * * * * *

    Let's consider ALL the facts. JG

    • 11 votes
    Reply#11 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:38 PM EDT
    AngryWhiteMan63

    The question remains, however, as to when the Pentagon will acknowledge its attack submarine's role in the devastating earthquake-tsunami.

    Nothing to acknowledge. There was no role. Prove the sub was at sea when the quake happened. Once you do that, then and only then will you have the starting point for this baseless conspiracy.

    • 1 vote
    #11.1 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:24 PM EDT
    Reply
    Johnny Genlock

    ANOTHER TIME/DATE ANOMALY ~ WILL EXPLAIN IN CAPS

    I* * *

    No-one is certain what caused the mass stranding of 100 false killer whales (Pseudorca crassidens) at Busselton Western Australia, in early June 2005, but the stranded animals probably owe their lives to a similar stranding of 19 long-finned pilot whales at east Busselton in April some six weeks earlier.

    The April stranding had sparked renewed interest in WestWhales, a community-based rescue group.
    * * *
    In the latest developments, 160 "false" killer whales swam onto the sand in the first mass whale beaching since the Dec. 26 tsunami. The whales came ashore in Busselton, some 125 miles (190 km) south of the West Australian city of Perth. Their location in the Indian Ocean is directly linked to natural currents which circulate counter-clockwise from Indonesia towards Africa, then return to the Australian coast. While whales and other large mammals are known to behave erratically in anticipation of a natural disaster, the whales' reaction now to the earthquake further demonstrates the effects of nuclear contamination in the ecosystem.

    WHILE THE EXACT NUMBER OF WHALES CERTAINLY CAN BE CONTESTED, AND I'D TEND TO HONOR THE 119 MENTIONED IN THE FIRST ARTICLE, . . . YET THE SECOND ARTICLE QUOTED FROM WAS WRITTEN MAY 25, 2005. SO IT IS HARDLY POSSIBLE THE EVENTS OF THE FIRST ARTICLE OCCURRED IN EARLY JUNE.

    JG

    • 11 votes
    Reply#12 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:09 PM EDT
    AngryWhiteMan63

    And this has what to do with the San Fran grounding?

    • 1 vote
    #12.1 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:25 PM EDT
    Jaybao

    Damn! & Lndon Lau thought AWM was "flawless" and smart. Pretending to be clueless.

    off course JG was talking about the quake & San Fran's involvement. AWN ans on 11.1.

    • 10 votes
    #12.2 - Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:02 AM EDT
    Reply
    kokohito

    A word of advice AWM. Was readin' yr comments till u started to BLAST BK evry other sentence. Puts me off. Kinda counterproductive don't u think

    • 10 votes
    Reply#13 - Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:13 AM EDT
    Jweb911

    !!! Yeah agree w ya. Don't bother to read AWM. Boring!

    • 9 votes
    #13.1 - Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:32 AM EDT
    Reply
    MajWilliamMartin

    I think no matter how you want to read into this Story "Personally", what you want the outcome to be... is where you're going to bury your head in the Sand.

    But things like this remind me of the Many LIES for the justification of the Iraq War, and When all is said and done... "Put a Fork in it done.."

    We have the Iraqi that said, "I'm Proud I lied about WMD'S in IRAQ."

    Source: huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20110216/eu-britain-iraq-curveball/

    We have Both the FBI and "Penis Cheney" that said "Bin Laden had NO TIES to 9/11.

    Source: fbi.gov/wanted/topten/usama-bin-laden

    Source: video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4646091253905495376

    Then we have Afghanistan, Where Colin Powell had the "White Papers" that were NEVER given to the Taliban proving Bin Laden had ties to 9/11.

    Source: democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1410619

    But even more Important, FOX NEWS Before (BOTH WARS) Reported that Usama Bin Laden had Died in Tora Bora on December 26th, 2001.

    Source: foxnews.com/story/0,2933,41576,00.html

    I'm not sure WHO Obama Killed in Pakistan? Are You?

    Adding up the Loss in Billion's of Dollars, Loss of Liberties here in the USA. Today we are all "Suspect" Terrorist's as Janet Napalitano calls us.

    Plus, Out of Every Domestic Terrorist's the FBI has caught, It is so Convenient that the Terrorist's ALL had a FBI Handler who "GAVE THEM THE BOMB!"

    What Lies were told to make American Boy's AVENGE the Deaths of 3,000 American Civilian's you come up with one giant question.

    "WAS IT WORTH IT?"

    Since war began (3/19/03):...................4478 In Combat 3530

    Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03)...4338 In Combat 3422

    Since Handover (6/29/04):.....................3619 In Combat 2897

    Since Obama Inauguration (1/20/09):......250 In Combat 126

    Since Operation New Dawn:.......................49 In Combat 36

    Total Wounded:.........Official 33169 Estimated Over 100000

    320,000 Vets Have Brain Injuries

    18 Vet Suicides Per Day +/-

    US Military Deaths - Afghanistan 1,811

    Contractor Employee Deaths - Iraq 1,487

    Source: antiwar.com/casualties/

    Like "Penis Cheney said, "We will be Greeted as Liberators." WRONG!

    Then we are "TOLD" that "THEY" Hate us for OUR FREEDOM, When it is a FACT we have NO FREEDOMS.

    So, in closing... If you think OUR GOVERNMENT is Not involved in any Covert Clandestine Operations at HOME or Abroad. You Need to WAKE UP!

    Only in the U.S. can they Implant a Stuxnet Virus in Iran's Nuclear Reactor, Watch Israel Assassinate Iran's Nuclear Scientist's, Watch Obama Assassinated a U.S. Citizen and 9 more Others that were Murdered with that BLAST. Where they on that "HIT LIST TOO?"

    We Used to have this for a Protection:

    On December 4, 1981 President Ronald Reagan signed Executive Order 12333, an Executive Order intended to extend powers and responsibilities of US intelligence agencies and direct the leaders of U.S. federal agencies to co-operate fully with CIA requests for information. This executive order was entitled United States Intelligence Activities.

    It was amended by Executive Order 13355: Strengthened Management of the Intelligence Community, on August 27, 2004. On July 30, 2008, President Bush issued Executive Order 13470 amending Executive Order 12333 to strengthen the role of the DNI.
    Part 2.11 of this executive order reiterates a proscription on US intelligence agencies sponsoring or carrying out an assassination. It reads:
    No person employed by or acting on behalf of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, assassination.

    Today it IS Legal to Assassinate ANYONE connected to Terrorism. The only problem with this is that without a Trial to confirm Guilt, Our Government can and WILL now freely assassinate whom it wishes. We have, Pre-Thought Crimes (Minority Report) Pre-Detainment and Prolonged Indefinite Detention. One must seriously look at Where this Country is headed. TSA, Back-Scatter Radar, Cop's downloading your Smart Phones, Bio-Metric Scanning on Traffic Stops. Can't record Cop's even though it IS LEGAL to Record them in Public as they record US using that same Law of (PUBLIC).

    HAARP Weapons. Sadly these barely touch the surface and soon, We will need Permit's to Travel from State to State like Nazi Germany.

    If we were ARAB'S Our Government would be 100% behind Our Protest's. But Here they Arrest US. Kill out Internet, Kill our Phones, FBI and CIA all over Facebook. Video's and Blogs are being removed. So if you think it wont happen. THINK AGAIN.

    MWM

    • 7 votes
    Reply#14 - Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:40 AM EDT
    Helda

    So, in closing... If you think OUR GOVERNMENT is Not involved in any Covert Clandestine Operations at HOME or Abroad. You Need to WAKE UP!

    IRY! Nicely said.

    • 7 votes
    Reply#15 - Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:08 PM EDT
    AngryWhiteMan63

    Well BK, as with any conspiracy, if you don't take into account the small details (remember, your the one who said you were not worried about them), they ususally come back to bite you in the ass.

    In order for any of your fantasy to work, The USS San Francisco had to have gone to sea in early December. And it would be limping back to the area of Guam between the 26th and Jan 9th. That is what you had proposed. For this to work, you have to prove the ship went to sea in that time frame. You have not done this. You rely on a broad statement that "The Navy Lied".

    Now we find a media article that has an important player in this story phoning his parents on the 3rd of January. You dismiss this as another Navy lie (when it was the parents who said it), a general lie (basicly saying the parents lied and are thus involved in conspiracy), or as tha rantings of some Blogger (pot, kettle and that sort) when in fact it IS a newspaper article. You use part of it for your argument, but dismiss that which doesn't fit.

    Let me state right now, that I don't care about your theory of a nuke weapon caused tsunami. I have no opinion on it what so ever. You want to believe that, fine, go for it. Hammer the Bush administration all you want. BP and the gulf, don't care. WMDs in Iraq, don't care.

    But when you demean the brave sailors of the San Francisco, and especially MM2 Ashely, yes, I do care. And I will debunk any attempt you make at tieing the tsunami bomb theory to the San Fran. And so far, you've come up empty. Until you prove that the San Fran left port in December, you have no case.

      Reply#16 - Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:52 PM EDT
      BK Lim

      Well BK, as with any conspiracy, if you don't take into account the small details (remember, your the one who said you were not worried about them), they ususally come back to bite you in the ass.

      Thanks for your advice . if they don't bite you first.

      The USS San Francisco had to have gone to sea in early December. And it would be limping back to the area of Guam between the 26th and Jan 9th. ....you have to prove the ship went to sea in that time frame.

      I don't have to prove anything on this. The navy cooked up a fictitious accident at Micronesia to cover the real accident. They thought their alibi was concrete. The proof will come later in an investigation. The onus is on the navy or you (defending the perpetrators of the fraud) to prove the San Fran was in Guam during this time until 7 Jan. If you can't prove beyond reasonable doubt then it is just too bad for you and for the Navy's image.

      You rely on a broad statement that "The Navy Lied".

      Isn't this obvious. Only the blind can't see. Isn't Willful Blindness common in all the scandals? But look at the title of my article. Did I say the Navy? Now you prove to us you can't read as well.

      • 6 votes
      Reply#17 - Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:43 PM EDT
      BK Lim

      Now we find a media article that has an important player in this story phoning his parents on the 3rd of January.

      Give me a break. You call this media article credible.

      You still don't get it or are you still spinning. You have been on this for more than a week yet you cannot come up with a more credible source. If you have to rely on a website that has only 1847 visitors (mine included) since 2002, then you must really be desperate. What more if the site is run by your buddies in the Navy. Can you say Independent? Why are you so afraid to link to the actual newspaper source website? Surely you can find one,right? Unless it is non-existent. Didn't your handlers caution you that even a reprinted newspaper source is not credible evidence especially one that can be edited.

      This so called newsletter is also very suspicious. I emailed Greg Stitz and have not received any reply. Why would Greg Stitz email to himself on the only 2 issues. Issue #1 20 Jan 2005 08:24:54-0500 and Issue#2 24 Jan 2005 18:29:52 -0500. For all purposes and intent, this email was never really sent. If the header had been automatically generated how could the "-0500" appear on the time stamp. So what happened after issue#2. If it is issued every 4 days, then it must have died an instant death on 24 Jan. There were no more issues after 24 Jan. Looks like the newsletter had been set up just to insert the line that "Joey called on 3rd Jan". The stories in the 2 issues are also found elsewhere on the same website. Was this website specially set up for San Fran accident? Or was a dormant website hijacked to insert some articles on San Fran so that the 2 issues of newsletter can be "published" to provide the much needed evidence of "Joey Called Home on 3rd Jan". Ha Ha Ha ...anyone who believes this is credible has to get his head examined. Worse the one who had been promoting this as credible has to have some sinister agenda.

      From: "Greg Stitz" <gstitz@mindspring.com>
      To: gstitz@mindspring.com
      Subject: SONAR - Submarine Online News and Review - Issue #1
      Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:24:54 -0500

      This is a BLIND CC sent to the entire POC LIST
      SONAR - Submarine Online News and Review
      Issue #1
      19 January 2005
      Compiled by Ron Martini
      This Issue of SONAR is also available at the USSVI Website
      http://www.ussvi.org/webmastr/2005/Sonar-05-001.htm
      As mentioned in the last POC Broadcast, Ron Martini will be providing a weekly digest of submarine news and related
      commmentary. This is being distributed to the Base POCs for distribution to your members.

      From: "Greg Stitz" <gstitz@mindspring.com>
      To: gstitz@mindspring.com
      Subject: SONAR - Submarine Online News and Review - Issue #2
      Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 18:29:52 -0500

      This is a BLIND CC sent to the entire POC LIST
      SONAR - Submarine Online News and Review
      Issue #2
      24 January 2005
      Compiled by Ron Martini
      This Issue of SONAR is also available at the USSVI Website
      http://www.ussvi.org/webmastr/2005/Sonar-05-002.htm
      As mentioned previously, Ron Martini will be providing a weekly digest of submarine news and related commmentary. This
      is being distributed to the Base POCs for distribution to your members.
      You may sign the Guest Book for Joseph Ashley at:
      http://www.legacy.com/ohio/Guestbook.asp?Page=Guestbook&PersonID=3034030

      • 6 votes
      #17.1 - Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:54 PM EDT
      BK Lim

      You dismiss this as another Navy lie (when it was the parents who said it),

      Oh yeah? I question the authenticity of the newsletter. It is you who discredited the Navy with your incessant chest Thumping with the lies. You are tripping all over yourselves and putting your own words and interpretation. Read carefully again. You are obviously trying to the old trick of forcing your words on others and then using them to argue backwards.

      • 6 votes
      #17.2 - Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:05 PM EDT
      Reply
      BK Lim

      when in fact it IS a newspaper article.

      Show us first the newspaper website and the story where it was published.

      • 6 votes
      Reply#18 - Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:08 PM EDT
      BK Lim

      You use part of it for your argument, but dismiss that which doesn't fit.

      You don't get do you? When you present your own witness or evidence to support your case, any incriminating point (or slip in your part) damages you more than me. You are the maker / presenter of that document, didn't you check first? You pointed me to that particular article and straight away I could punch holes in your evidence.

      It is your document and I can still use it show something is wrong with the time of Ashley death, doesn't that say something about how the time can be flip-flopped to your convenience. I am pointing to the inconsistency. We were wondering why Adam Clampitt jumped the gun in offering his condolences before the death was announced publicly. If I was writing the story then maybe you can cast doubts on it but the facts came from your documents. You did not see that one coming, did you? Ha..Ha..Ha!

      The sailor's next of kin had been notified. Lt. j.g. Adam Clampitt of the Pacific Fleet offered condolences early Sunday

      Now there are more questions on the story but I will save it for the next posting. Guess what? All your inconsistent arguments will be torn apart. So be patient.

      In any case, you tried to twist it to "sunday" when it was clearly saturday 2 am. So now you are admitting it to be saturday. Well the official records will show when the Navy informed the parents. But I would think it fitted the "fabricated accident". Remember after they had decided that the fake accident was to occur at 11:42 am, the Navy informed all the families of the sub crew at 4pm Sat Guam Time of the accident. 2am Est = 5pm Guam Time. So that seems about right -- 1hour to get to the parents at Ohio.

      If my article connecting the dots is a total fabrication how could it have fitted all the events so well from the mobilisation of the Strike Force 5 to the 10 Jan arrival at Guam. It has to be a miracle isn't it to make up a story like that. On the other hand, you are trying to cover up a fictitious accident that never happened at Micronesia. And now you know how difficult it is to cover all your bases when it is a lie.

      You cannot fool all the people all the time.

      • 6 votes
      Reply#19 - Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:42 PM EDT
      AngryWhiteMan63

      BK, your retorts would be funny, if they weren't so pathetic. It's obvious you have lost this, and thus you cling to hyperbole in an effort to deflect.

      Let's start with this:

      Give me a break. You call this media article credible.

      You see, you're focusing on the pdf SONAR (Submarine Online News and Review) document. When you should be focusing on what is included in it. The article in question (and by the way, you are acting very hypocritical when you USE this article to further a point, then dismiss it as not credible) was INCLUDED in the SONAR. Not written by the SONAR author. Or did you miss this:

      Navy man Joseph Ashley remembered

      for `Dixie' tune, big smile

      Sub accident leaves a void

      By Marilyn Miller

      Beacon Journal staff writer

      Now just in case you didn't get that let me repeat it: Marilyn Miller, Beacon Journal Staff Writer.

      The first few lines of this article are:

      The Dixie song played by Joseph Ashley's green Jeep could be heard whenever he drove it through his neighborhood. The song came from the car's horn, patterned after his favorite 1980s television show, The Dukes of Hazzard. ``We always knew where he was in Manchester,'' said his father, Dan Ashley. But since 2001, when Joseph Ashley joined the Navy, those noises have seldom been heard.

      Now, BK, rather indignantly says:

      Show us first the newspaper website and the story where it was published.

      The reason BK does this, is because he lacks basic investigative skills. In fact, I"VE done more investigation on this subject in the past few days than BK has ever done for this entire fairy tale.

      Okay BK. Once more I will do your investigation for you. First, we know it was written by the Beacon Journal. And if we google Akron Newspapers, hey guess what? There is an Akron Beacon Journal! (See how easy this is BK?). Then we google Akron Beacon Journal Archive. And what do you know, Ohio.com has archives of the Akron Beacon Journal all the way back to 1998. WOW! Who woulda thought?! So we go to that website, and enter "NAVY MAN JOSEPH ASHLEY REMEMBERED FOR 'DIXIE' TUNE, BIG SMILE" as a search term, select 2005 as the year, and what do you know!? This is what gets returned:

      Published on January 11, 2005, Article 1 of 1 found. Document ID: 10793F86F38F9815 NAVY MAN JOSEPH ASHLEY REMEMBERED FOR 'DIXIE' TUNE, BIG SMILE The Dixie song played by Joseph Ashley's green Jeep could be heard whenever he drove it through his neighborhood. The song came from the car's horn, patterned after his favorite 1980s television show, The Dukes of Hazzard. "We always knew where he was in Manchester," said his father, Dan Ashley. But since 2001, when Joseph Ashley joined the Navy, those noises have seldom been heard. A few months ago, Dan Ashley blew (Akron Beacon Journal (OH), 1099 words.)

      WOW! Just WOW! That took all of about 4 minutes to complete.

      So you see BK, it was an article published in a newspaper. I have just told you how to look it up. If you want to read it, you will have to subscribe to the Archives. I would suggest that you do, Plug in Joseph Ashley as a search term, and all kinds of articles pop up. You might want to invest a little bit of money there BK, if your serious about investigating this thing. Or you could come up with some excuse why you wont, and try to downplay the article. Regardless, it states that Ashley phoned home on the third, is published, and thus is a matter of record.

      I don't have to prove anything on this. The navy cooked up a fictitious accident at Micronesia to cover the real accident. They thought their alibi was concrete. The proof will come later in an investigation. The onus is on the navy or you (defending the perpetrators of the fraud) to prove the San Fran was in Guam during this time until 7 Jan.

      This is where you are dead wrong BK. First, I have proven with a Guam News account that the ship pulled into port on Dec 1st. Another Newspaper article proves Ashley phoned home on Jan 3rd. Countless newspaper articles state that the ship left port on Jan 7th. YOU SIR, MUST PROVE THESE ACCOUNTS INACCURATE. You are the one saying that they were at sea on Dec 26th, yet you offer nothing to back this up except faulty analysis of the damaged sub (with photoshoped photos) and a complete lack of understanding of Medivac and Helo transfers at sea. The onus is on you. And please, don't lie by saying "The proof will come later in an investigation". We all know by now that your investigative skills match your knowledge of Submarines, Helo operations, and damage analysis from photos: that is, it's ZERO.

      You've been beaten BK. You can't account for the Jan 3rd phone call so you insist that the Newspaper article (regardless of any issues you may have with the SONAR report) is false, yet you use this very article to try and prove a point about date mixups.

      You write off heavy sea states from a photo which was taken at a instant in time, and refuse to look at the video or comment on it when it is provided to you.

      You photoshop a photograph, and try to insert evidence to support your claims, yet you ignore the photos provided which explain and provide greater detail, including evidence that metal and damage is bent in, rather than bent out from an explosion.

      You try to saturate the issue, and preach on tangents about BP, Strike Force Sorties, and troop movements which have nothing to do with, nor were they considered players in the grounding of the San Fran.

      No BK, no one who has any credibility would ever confuse what you have done so far with investigation. But I've given you a few pointers on how to do so. If you would like, I could help you locate the Official Report, since we all know from reading your articles so far that you haven't even read it. (Here's a hint: Most conspiracy theorist like to get their hands on ALL government documents to review and analyze them. That way they know where the weak points are to attack)

      • 1 vote
      Reply#20 - Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:20 AM EDT
      AngryWhiteMan63

      Did I say the Navy? Now you prove to us you can't read as well.

      Uh, yeah, I can read:

      That is what the Navy said. ..... The San Fran left on 8am Guam Time 7 Jan 2005. That is the easiest part to lie

      And if anyone is stupid enough to think the NAVY DOES NOT LIE

      See the Navy is now caught in their own lies

      Not AngryWhiteMan who keep sucking up to the Navy lies and continue spreading them.

      And from the article above:

      Naturally the USS San Francisco port departure on 7 Jan 2005 from Guam and the 3 Jan 20005 phone call Ashley was supposed to make from Guam never happened. It would have been easy for the Navy to produce confidential logs and records to show these two important events. But they did not think it was necessary since the world had already accepted the “accident at Micronesia” story. It would also be absurd to show the confidential records to substantiate these 2 events out of the blues. Any records they show now are likely to be fake than authentic.

      You wrote that in an attemtp to paint the phone call as some part of the coverup, until it was PROVEN to you that it was not part of the Navy's doing. Then you try to attack the source as that of a Blogger. But as we have just seen, BK, it was an article written in the Akron Beacon Journal. So you can't run from the truth BK, no matter how hard it hurts your theory.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#21 - Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:02 AM EDT
      AngryWhiteMan63

      We were wondering why Adam Clampitt jumped the gun in offering his condolences before the death was announced publicly. If I was writing the story then maybe you can cast doubts on it but the facts came from your documents. You did not see that one coming, did you? Ha..Ha..Ha!

      The sailor's next of kin had been notified. Lt. j.g. Adam Clampitt of the Pacific Fleet offered condolences early Sunday

      Now there are more questions on the story but I will save it for the next posting. Guess what? All your inconsistent arguments will be torn apart. So be patient.

      When you do, try to keep in mind that at the time, Lt j.g. Adam Clampitt of the US Pacific Fleet (USPF) was speaking from his base in Pearl Harbor Hawaii. Early Sunday actually makes perfect sense. I'll let you do the math on the time zones. (Again, with a little investigation, we learn the truth. Try it sometime BK. Google "Lt j.g. Adam Clampitt of the US Pacific Fleet" and see what you get.) So we debunk that little discrepancy. Now you're left with a Newspaper article about his parents. Oh wait. BK doesn't trust that source. If he doesn't trust it about the Jan 3rd phone call, then we can't trust it about the mix up with Friday night/Saturday night. So that's out.

      What's left? Nothing. BK has no point, and thus is shutdown on that pile of garbage. You did not see that one coming, did you BK? Ha..Ha..Ha!

      Can't wait BK. Try to use some investigative skills on your own. Every time you ask me to prove something, I shut you down.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#22 - Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:52 AM EDT
      BK Lim

      A newsletter with only 2 issues on 20 and 24 Jan 2005 with unknown number of members BCC and yet emailed to himself ......you call that credible???

      A website with only 1847 visitors since 2002 ...widely published credible ???

      Lt j.g. Adam Clampitt of the US Pacific Fleet (USPF) was speaking from his base in Pearl Harbor Hawaii. Early Sunday actually makes perfect sense. I'll let you do the math on the time zones. (Again, with a little investigation, we learn the truth.

      Early Sunday cannot be afternoon Sunday isn't it? The navy prounced the death on 1313Hrs and reported in all the blogs as sunday afternoon. If that is not a lie then what is? Someyhing as certain as death cannot be so uncertain. So now there are at lease 5 dufferent times of death.

      1) 25 1/2 hours after the accident on 26 Dec 2004,

      2) 25 1/2 hours after the fake accident at 11:43 pm on 8 Dec 2004 which is 13:13 hrs on 9 Jan (sunday) Guam Time.

      3) shortly after the fake accident but before 1500hrs 8 Jan Guam Time or before 2am EST when the Navy officially informed Ashley parents at Ohio which is 1500hrs 8 Jan (saturday) Guam Time. The Guam Naval base gathered the families of the crew to anounce to them the accident at 4pm Guam Time (1600 hrs) 8 Jan 2005. At that time the navy said they could not disclose the name of the dead yet for at least 24 hours and the family of the dead had been notified. When I said it makes sense I am referring to the normal protocol in anouncing the death to the family, to the time of the accident. All these "were reported" in tens of blogs read by thousands if not millions around the world. With so many website to choose from, Our Friend AWM have to really scrap the barrel with one that has only 1847 visitors since 2002. AWM is banging on the fact that the public do not spend 24/7 with several teams scanning the cyber space for stories on Ashley.

      4) shortly after the medical personnel were transferred to San Fran (reported by AWM about 9 am) on morning of 9 Jan. Shortly if you take it to be 1 to 3 hours would also mean Ashley died before Sunday afternoon. That would mean late morning Sunday 9 Jan.

      5) Naval commander Adam Clampitt send condolence early sunday. Obviously you do not send condolence before one is dead. Early Sunday means before 10am 9 Jan.

      One of them is the truth that was not reported at all. Can you guess which one?

      If you are the murderer and concocting an alibi to distance yourself from the murder scene, would you tell the truth or spread the lies in order to make the alibi credible. Now you understand why AWM (and his team) is spending 24/7 fanatically trying to bury the story.

      • 6 votes
      Reply#23 - Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:25 AM EDT
      AngryWhiteMan63

      Ha ha! Your despiration is showing BK. Keep clinging to the blog credibility, ignoring it's actully a newspaper article. Ignoring the truth is always easier than admitting your wrong. You are doing a good job of that BK.

      It's fun to blast these holes in your fairy tale. And it is hilarious to see you squirm and ignore the truth when it slaps your face.

      I have to say though, when you ignore the truth like you're doing, it makes one wonder how credible you are in all things you write about.

      • 1 vote
      #23.1 - Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:06 AM EDT
      AngryWhiteMan63

      A newsletter with only 2 issues on 20 and 24 Jan 2005 with unknown number of members BCC and yet emailed to himself ......you call that credible???

      What that statement tells me is that you not only ignore the truth, you ignore the posts of others who provide you the truth. You are so twisted ni your fantasy world, that despite anything anyone says, your mind will not allow it to process it. You've just repeated the same stuff you said earlier, ignoring everything I responded with. It is a pattern with you BK. You avoid what is posted when it proves you wrong. I said it before, you have no credibility, and your continued ignorance of others when they provide you with evidence means you cannot be taken seriously in anything you say. Lets try again:

      You see, you're focusing on the pdf SONAR (Submarine Online News and Review) document. When you should be focusing on what is included in it. The article in question (and by the way, you are acting very hypocritical when you USE this article to further a point, then dismiss it as not credible) was INCLUDED in the SONAR. Not written by the SONAR author. Or did you miss this:

      Navy man Joseph Ashley remembered

      for `Dixie' tune, big smile

      Sub accident leaves a void

      By Marilyn Miller

      Beacon Journal staff writer

      Now just in case you didn't get that let me repeat it: Marilyn Miller, Beacon Journal Staff Writer.

      The first few lines of this article are:

      The Dixie song played by Joseph Ashley's green Jeep could be heard whenever he drove it through his neighborhood. The song came from the car's horn, patterned after his favorite 1980s television show, The Dukes of Hazzard. ``We always knew where he was in Manchester,'' said his father, Dan Ashley. But since 2001, when Joseph Ashley joined the Navy, those noises have seldom been heard.

      Now, BK, rather indignantly says:

      Show us first the newspaper website and the story where it was published.

      The reason BK does this, is because he lacks basic investigative skills. In fact, I"VE done more investigation on this subject in the past few days than BK has ever done for this entire fairy tale.

      Okay BK. Once more I will do your investigation for you. First, we know it was written by the Beacon Journal. And if we google Akron Newspapers, hey guess what? There is an Akron Beacon Journal! (See how easy this is BK?). Then we google Akron Beacon Journal Archive. And what do you know, Ohio.com has archives of the Akron Beacon Journal all the way back to 1998. WOW! Who woulda thought?! So we go to that website, and enter "NAVY MAN JOSEPH ASHLEY REMEMBERED FOR 'DIXIE' TUNE, BIG SMILE" as a search term, select 2005 as the year, and what do you know!? This is what gets returned:

      Published on January 11, 2005, Article 1 of 1 found. Document ID: 10793F86F38F9815 NAVY MAN JOSEPH ASHLEY REMEMBERED FOR 'DIXIE' TUNE, BIG SMILE The Dixie song played by Joseph Ashley's green Jeep could be heard whenever he drove it through his neighborhood. The song came from the car's horn, patterned after his favorite 1980s television show, The Dukes of Hazzard. "We always knew where he was in Manchester," said his father, Dan Ashley. But since 2001, when Joseph Ashley joined the Navy, those noises have seldom been heard. A few months ago, Dan Ashley blew (Akron Beacon Journal (OH), 1099 words.)

      WOW! Just WOW! That took all of about 4 minutes to complete.

      So you see BK, it was an article published in a newspaper. I have just told you how to look it up. If you want to read it, you will have to subscribe to the Archives. I would suggest that you do, Plug in Joseph Ashley as a search term, and all kinds of articles pop up. You might want to invest a little bit of money there BK, if your serious about investigating this thing. Or you could come up with some excuse why you wont, and try to downplay the article. Regardless, it states that Ashley phoned home on the third, is published, and thus is a matter of record.

      Ignoring the truth wont make it go away BK.

      • 1 vote
      #23.2 - Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:20 AM EDT
      BK Lim

      Wow you don't sleep do you? Give us the link to the source or are you hastily setting up a con-site or hijack a dormant site to insert the article. Happy working.

      • 5 votes
      #23.3 - Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:35 AM EDT
      AngryWhiteMan63

      LOL! You didn't even read the post! HA HA HA HA HA HA! No link BK, just a lesson on investigation. If you had read the post, and followed the instructions, you would have seen it. But of course you didn't. You would rather avoid the truth. And it is becoming obvious that you avoid investigation. In fact, it has become a habit of yours. So much so that you have actually been asked not to contribute.

      You said yourself above:

      "It is always easier to tell the truth as the truth
      will not contradict any facts that are revealed over time."

      Pity you didn't take your own advice.

      The points raised in my post above are a catalog of what I can only assume are errors, as you have failed to address them. I will not be asking Mr. Berman to elaborate on anything, as I think you have just discredited yourself beyond redemption and checkmated yourself.

      Your actions have damaged the cause of legitimate questioning of BP's actions. Let others draw conclusions from that.

      And even in your own field of "alleged" expertise, you seem to be lacking in credibility:

      Let me make it clear that I have circulated BK's articles, and was criticized for do so on 'TheOilDrum' website. I did that because his was a professional opinion, well constructed, and because non-mainstream views deserve a hearing.

      But I'm also a hard-nosed journalist. And my job is to put hard questions.

      The above questions are not trivial and the public deserve straight answers.

      As BK said: "the truth is always simple and logical."

      So, when I get a runaround and talk of 'hidden answers' in response to simple and logical questions, that's a red flag. This is not a game. It's a serious business with livelihoods and lives in the balance. I've drawn conclusions from what's just happened, that's all.

      I post this because it shows a pattern BK. A pattern of Posting articles with little or no investigation, and avoidance of investigation when confronted with counter arguments. You make an absurd assumption about a chain of events, and then challenge anyone who doesn't agree with you to "Prove It", when you yourself have no proof for your allegations.

      And when confronted with facts that "prove it", you either ignore it, or make wild tangent attacks, without ever confronting the actual facts. Because you have done no investigation, and you get caught in your lies and false assumptions.

      I wonder BK, what became of your friend the good Dr Tom? Are we to believe everything we read about BK, when his credibility is questionable?

      Prove to us that you are credible. Do some investigation and tell us when the USS San Francisco went to sea after Dec 1st. If you were a serious investigator, and you want to be taken seriously, you have to prove that point. And trying to discredit an Akron Beacon Journal article is not proof that the sub was at sea, and destroys your credibility.

      • 1 vote
      #23.4 - Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:28 AM EDT
      AngryWhiteMan63

      Wow you don't sleep do you?

      Ha! Even that statement tells us you have a hard time with time zones BK. I'm in Central time. It's 10:30 am here.

      • 1 vote
      #23.5 - Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:30 AM EDT
      AngryWhiteMan63

      Naval commander Adam Clampitt send condolence early sunday. Obviously you do not send condolence before one is dead. Early Sunday means before 10am 9 Jan.

      It was Lt j.g. Adam Clampitt. From USFP. In Pearl Harbor. Hawaii. 20 hours difference from Guam time. Do the math BK.

      BK Credibility: still pegged low.

      • 1 vote
      #23.6 - Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:35 AM EDT
      BK Lim

      Maybe not as low as this? Are these some of your buddies ypu were relying to help you out? This comes from MWM.

      http://laist.com/2011/10/20/synthetic_pot_bust_nabs_49_sailors.php

      The Navy has busted 64 San Diego-based sailors connected to a synthetic pot ring — 49 of those sailors were aboard the USS Carl Vinson, the aircraft carrier that was used to bury Osama bin Laden at sea.

      The alleged ring included two distributors and a middle-man of the synthetic drug "spice."
      Forty-six spice users were also busted. A release from the Navy says that it has already started booting out sailors — including distributors or users that might have already been on thin ice for prior drug use.

      Spice is sort of like pot. It used to be legal but now distributors face consequences even more serious than those distributing old-fashioned pot.

      Sailors from the USS Carl Vinson weren't the only ones nabbed in this bust. Ten sailors on the USS San Francisco and three sailors from floating dry dock Arco were disciplined for using spice. Two sailors on the USS San Francisco are being investigated for distributing spice. (The Navy also found other sailors using coke and meth.)

      • 6 votes
      #23.7 - Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:17 PM EDT
      MajWilliamMartin

      I think it is actually Funny that Our Military actually Supplies the SEED and FERTILIZER and then GROWS the OPIUM / HEROIN and MARIJUANA for the Afghan's and it is LEGAL. But in the States it is Illegal because the BANK'S are Laundering Money in the tune of Billions/

      Yet why would they "KICK" a Sailor out for a NON-ILLEGAL product. a "SPICE."

      Spices will all soon be Illegal at this rate as well as it is becoming Illegal to use "MONEY", COLD HARD CASH!.

      Louisiana prohibits residents from using cash when buying, selling secondhand goods
      naturalnews.com/033882_Louisiana_cash.html
      federaljack.com/?p=125914#respond

      • 7 votes
      #23.8 - Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:23 PM EDT
      BK Lim

      MWM, is this the same as "Fast & Furious"?

      • 7 votes
      #23.9 - Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:07 AM EDT
      MajWilliamMartin

      Fast and Furious? How about. Lightspeed and Pissed!

      The fact that Drugs are Illegal in the "Fatherland" is actually a Joke and here is why. Weapon's and Drugs go hand and hand.

      US Military Helps Terrorist's Grow Heroin - US Funding Taliban
      youtube.com/watch?v=ElEciFI0Pew&feature=player_embedded

      War on Drugs US Military Helping Afghan Farmers
      youtube.com/watch?v=3G_KX71L7CE

      US Military Helping Afghan Farmers Grow Opium Poppies!
      youtube.com/watch?v=wmJENSpdtW0

      Top Mexican Drug Lord: I Trafficked Cocaine For The U.S. Government prisonplanet.com/top-mexican-drug-lord-i-trafficked-cocaine-for-the-u-s-government.html

      This wonderful Government that we have invests Billions into a Trade Market. $50,000,000,000 in Weapon's Sales for 2010/-12 that is supplying Gun's/Weapons/Arms into so many countries. NOTE: Narcotics and Weapons are found at almost every crime scene. Gun Walker was one such Crime Scene. In some ways a Direct link can't always be shown, But as I go on... "A Light will come on for you!" (Insert the Windows, Tada.wav sound here) :)

      But before I go on, being caught with a Bomb or Rocket Launcher or Explosive or Bio Weapon under the Nunn/Lungar treaty should know they are now called "Weapon's of Mass Destructrion. And man is Prison time Severe. [1] Excluded are DRONES that blow away little Afghan boys collecting firewood or as some call them, "Future Terrorist's", Anyway to Justify a Killing!

      In March of this Year, wired.com ran an article called "Who Sold Libya It's SuperMissiles?"[2a] These were both U.S. Made and Russian Made SAMS Missiles with a Range of over 15,000 Feet. [2b] We suddenly see that the same Rebel's that the U.S. has been Supporting in Libya Released over 600 Al Qaeda from Prison, [3.a] have now skirted the country with these Missiles and you can BET that American Air-Liners will be dropping like flies in the not to distant future.

      Libyan authorities accused al Qaeda of trying to smuggle 37 million painkillers into the country to alter the minds of young people to join a revolt against Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi. [3.b] And don't forget the crazed Rumor that Gaddafi was giving out Viagra like candy so Mass Rapes could be done.

      The truth is out that YES, Al Qaeda was on the Front Lines in Libya fighting alongside the Rebel's,[4] Also that these Libyan (Al Qaeda) Rebel's actually visited the White House, But left disappointed after meeting with Top national security officials. (Imagine) Al Qaeda on US SOIL! [5] is New Governments first thing was to IMPOSE (Sharia Law) This is a Big Step backwards for those that (Thought) they were going forward with Freedoms.

      But, That is Just Libya.

      Then we have the U.S. Supplying Gun's/Weapons to the Somalian's who inadvertingly are supplying the Al Qaeda. [6] Since the Ugandan Military is Dirt Poor and Starving so they SELLING their U.S. Made/Given/Supplied Weapons to the Al Qaeda. Not only does this allow the War to Continue, The Starvation to Continue but upwards of 750,000 will soon die because of this supplied action. In the meantime, [7] Hillary was asking for $17,000,000 in Aid to Feed the Starving. [8] Which would seem that if the U.S. would quit supplying Guns they would not have the Strength to FIGHT. Period.

      The Proof is in the Pudding. The CIA, Better known as the "Cocain Import Agency" has for years- Starting from the Iran-Contras. To summerise in short, The CIA-backed Contras smuggled cocaine into the U.S. was then distributed as crack cocaine into LA-Calif, and funneled profits to the Contras. The CIA was aware of the cocaine transactions and the large shipments of drugs into the U.S. by the Contra personnel and directly aided drug dealers to raise money for the Contras.

      With the Current ATF Scandal and the following (2) Links, This can be summed up as the Arizona Sheriff explained. “If somebody gives a gun to somebody knowing they’re going to commit murder, guess what we call them? … We call them accomplices.” [9] [10].

      We have all have probably seen the Mel Gibson movie, "Air America" - I hope there are those that with reading -Of- reference [10] and the following, That you can clearly see that there are still alive programs{Today} such as Air America where the CIA is covertly and Clandestingly Aiding and Abetting in the Trafficing of major Drugs into the "Fatherland."

      With this War on Drugs {Front} And the ATF Scandal of Operation Fast and Furious and Operation Castaway, Our major Fatherland's Bank's such as Wachovia now Wells Fargo had Laundered Billions of Drug Dollars for the Drug Lords in Mexico. Just to show the scope of this (U.S. FUNDED DRUG "Snow-Day" before going further, Lets look at the Banks and how NO ONE was Indicted, The Volume of Drugs being brought into the "Fatherland" and think of the Over-Dosing, Death's, Prison Terms, and the Ramping up of Arming the Police with Military Equipment. Then of Stories where a SWAT team had busted down a door and Pumped 70+ Rounds into a Single Mans Body. (A Little Over Kill??)

      On 10 April 2006, a DC-9 jet landed in the port city of Ciudad del Carmen, Mexican soldiers, waiting for it, found 128 cases packed with 5.7 tons of cocaine, valued at $100 million. But something more important was found, a paper trail behind the purchase of the plane by the Sinaloa narco cartel.
      Agents from the DEA & IRS found that the cocaine smugglers had bought the plane with money they had laundered through one of the biggest banks in the "Fatherland" Wachovia/Wells Fargo. Uncovering billions of dollars in wire transfers, traveller's cheques and cash shipments through Mexican exchanges into Wachovia accounts. Wachovia was put under immediate investigation for failing to maintain an effective anti-money laundering programme. Of special significance was that the period concerned began in 2004, which coincided with the first escalation of violence along the US-Mexico border that ignited the current drugs war.

      Here is the REAL KICKER! Criminal proceedings were brought against Wachovia, though not against any individual, "but the case never came to court". In March 2010, Wachovia settled the biggest action brought under the US bank secrecy act, through the US district court in Miami. Now that the year's "deferred prosecution" has expired, the bank is in effect in the clear. It paid federal authorities $110 million Fines for allowing transactions later proved to be connected to drug smuggling, and incurred a $50 million fine for failing to monitor cash used to ship 22 tons of cocaine.

      My Sources: Are CUT OFF, But ALL VALID. MWM

      • 6 votes
      #23.10 - Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:16 PM EDT
      AngryWhiteMan63

      Wow. Talk about off-topic!

        #23.11 - Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:43 PM EDT
        MajWilliamMartin

        Continued:

        More shocking, and more important, the bank was sanctioned for failing to apply the proper anti-laundering strictures to the transfer of $378.4 BILLION – a sum equivalent to one-third of Mexico's gross national product [11]

        Continuing:
        As mentioned above with the Arizona Sheriff. "We call them accomplices.”

        “The indictment pending against Zambada Niebla claims he served as the “logistical coordinator” for the “cartel,” helping to oversee an operation that imported into the U.S. “multi-ton quantities of cocaine … using various means, including but not limited to, Boeing 747 cargo aircraft, private aircraft … buses, rail cars, tractor trailers, and automobiles,” writes Narcosphere’s Bill Conroy.

        In a two page court pleading filed with the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Illinois in Chicago, Niebla claims that he was working on behalf and with the authority of, “The U.S. Department of Justice, Drug Enforcement Administration (“DEA”); and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (“FBI”); and the Department of Homeland Security, Immigration and Customs Enforcement (“ICE”),” since January 1, 2004.

        Niebla is also connected to the Gulfstream II jet that wrecked with four tons of cocaine on board on September 24, 2007. European investigators linked the plane’s tail number, N987SA, to past CIA “rendition” operations. The bill of sale for the Gulfstream jet, sold weeks before it crashed, listed the name of Greg Smith, a pilot who had previously worked for the FBI, DEA and CIA. The plane was purchased by Niebla’s Sinaloa drug-trafficking organization through a syndicate of Colombian drug-traffickers that included a CIA asset named Nelson Urrego, according to another undercover CIA operative, Baruch Vega, who was involved in the deal. [12] Aiding and Abetting!

        The ATF now say's that people that have Legal Marijauna Medical Cards cannot get a Firearm's License. I wonder if they had thought of of this when they Walked Thousands of Guns across the Border into the hands of Drug Dealers that DON'T have a Medical Condition and a NAME on File with the "Fatherland's" Gestapo?

        At least Licensed Users Could be traced unlike the Weapons in the hands of the CRIMINALS whom since they set all this up, They had advanced knowledged. So it was Premeditated. They Knowingly Killed the 3 Officers and 200+ Mexicans. Then again, Who is to know if any in the Mass Graves in Mexico are also Related to and of this Also?

        In Closing: This is no different then watching the FBI do a STING with a Terrorist. You READ where the FBI HANDLER (GAVE) the Terrorist's a BOMB. Whether it was WTC 1993, The Christmas Tree Bomber, The Underwear Bomber. There is ALWAYS a FBI HANDLER that GAVE them "THE BOMB".

        Then right after that, We have New Security Measures, The Patriot Act, The Body Scanners. Why the same "TOOL'S" for the Weapons of War used in and on the Fields of Afghanistan and Iraq such as Bio-Metric Scanners, 10-Point Finger Print ID, Iris Scanners are being used on everyday Normal U.S. Citizen's because Janet Napalitano has labeled Christian's, Bible Readers, Constitutionalist's, Survivalist's and others as Terrorist's. Oh and Please don't forget those that proudly defended this Country.

        If the Parent's of the 4,700 lost in Iraq only knew that This Government supports the very same Al Qaeda that Killed their Son's. I think All hell would break loose.

        MWM

        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        [1] nti.org/e_research/nunn-lugar_history.pdf
        [2.a] wired.com/dangerroom/2011/03/who-sold-libya-its-super-missiles/
        [2.b] ameristroika.wordpress.com/2011/09/27/helping-hotair-com-with-stolen-libyan-missiles-via-al-qaeda/
        [3.a] youtube.com/watch?v=PgBzZtzqQ_M&feature=related
        [3.b] af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE7222H120110303
        [4] newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blumer/2011/03/26/uk-telly-al-qaeda-troops-libyan-rebels-front-lines
        [5] endthelie.com/2011/05/13/libyan-al-qaeda-rebels-visit-white-house-leave-disappointed/#axzz1bboo5w00
        [6] businessinsider.com/weapons-sent-somalia-al-qaeda-2011-8
        [7] drudge.com/news/148050/750000-could-die-somalia
        [8] Hillary asking for $17,000,000 in Money for Aid.
        [9] examiner.com/crime-prevention-in-tucson/where-was-sheriff-dupnik#ixzz1adZEJ0aD
        [10] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_drug_trafficking
        [11] guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/03/us-bank-mexico-drug-gangs
        [12] americaisindanger.blogspot.com/2011/05/top-mexican-drug-lord-i-trafficked.html

        You can tell people cannot balance a budget for anyone who would spend $1,000,000,000 Dollars for a Job that
        only Pay's $250,000 Just don't have their Duck's in a row.

        • 6 votes
        #23.12 - Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:10 PM EDT
        BK Lim

        "Cocain Import Agency"

        I was slow in catching it.

        • 6 votes
        #23.13 - Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:41 PM EDT
        MajWilliamMartin

        The Drugs into this Country are all linked. There is a Cartel Kingpin in Jail in Chicago that is actually suing the CIA, After his Arrest they STOLE his Product and started selling it in the Chicago area. Reminds me of the Iran Contra deal in LA as they Sold the Cut Drugs to buy Weapons.

        The sad deal I noticed about these Boys on board the Ships is that is it sounds like there will ne no charges except for the ones doing "Real Drugs". Out of this, It sounds like the Investigation has been going for quite some time.

        I don't but the Aircraft Carrier as being the "One" that buried Bin Laden at Sea because Bin Laden has died on December 26th, 2001 in Tora Bora. But like Obama taking credit for THIS. He is also taking credit for the Iraqi U.S. Troop with drawl too, Another LIE.

        foxnews.com/story/0,2933,41576,00.html Bin Laden Died in 2001 on Dec. 26th.

        youtube.com/watch?v=h10LqeK2xzo&feature=player_embedded

        Under Bush... The War.Criminal he had signed with the Iraqi Parliament for Troops to be out by December 31st, 2011. It was after that time the Parliament would not with hold Charges for American Soldiers who were and would now be killing Iraqi's so they Would stand Trial.

        Iraq's Parliament showed the US the Door.

        Right now, U.S. is massing at the Border of Afghanistan for a possible invasion of Pakistan. Afghanistan has said they will (STAND) on the side on Pakistan should the U.S. Invade.

        msnbc.msn.com/id/44998270 Afghanistan would support Pakistan in case of military conflict between Pakistan and the United States.

        strategic-culture.org/news/2011/10/03/next-stop-is-pakistan.html Next Stop is Pakistan.

        telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/8834040/US-forces-massing-on-Afghanistan-Pakistan-border.html US forces 'massing on Afghanistan-Pakistan border'

        Mr. Lim, I had a strange feeling that since there were so many General's in Pakistan that could not stand the U.S. because of the Drone Attacks and others in the ISI that one of these would hand-off a Nuke to a Terrorist Org. Who wanted to get even for all of it. Still the ISI said of Davis.... The CIA Agent who killed the 2 following him was in fact both ISI agents tracking his Phone as he was exchanging WMD "Materials" for a False Flag that was up-coming as the American Dollar was about to implode.

        eutimes.net/2011/02/cia-spy-captured-giving-nuclear-bomb-to-terrorists/

        I actually wondered..? How many Tax Dollars it took to PAY OFF the Families to "Forget" the Murder of their Son's and then, How do you get the "State" to drop the Murder Charges just because the Family "Forgives You?" CIA "Can't Imagine Anyway."

        Karzai brother: Drug baron, CIA man or Afghan hero?

        KABUL: Ahmed Wali Karzai, the Afghan president's assassinated younger brother, was either a drugs baron, a CIA agent or a fierce defender of the Afghan people, depending on who you listen to.

        But leaked cables released last year revealed true US feelings about the president's half-brother, who was long dogged by claims of unsavoury links with the lucrative opium trade and private security firms.

        timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/south-asia/Karzai-brother-Drug-baron-CIA-man-or-Afghan-hero/articleshow/9203610.cms

        No matter where you look in the Military, There is a Massive business of Opium/Heroin behind it all. Afghanistan now produces 90% of the world's opium — most of it ends up on the streets of Europe and Russia as heroin. European officials warn that this fledgling democracy is being undermined as Afghan officials make decisions based on what's good for the drug trade, rather than the electorate.

        usatoday.com/news/world/2005-05-12-csm-afghan-drugs_x.htm

        These kinds of operations need a lot of financial input. Usually CIA arranges revenue from its own means for this kind of operations where expenses can’t be predicted by any measure. Funds from Whitehouse always need a complete audit and detailed reports about usage of these funds. There are numerous occasions when CIA never shared details of operations with its own analytical wing nor with any other public office in Washington. Most of the time it is drug money that compensates these expenses.

        CIA operations are not only single expenditure fulfilled by drugs there are also other deficiencies which are compensated with this money like financial institutes and banks in current financial crisis. UNODC Executive Director Antonio Maria Costa based in Vienna revealed that drug money often became the only available capital when the crisis spiraled out of control last year.

        darkgovernment.com/news/cia-secret-operations-drug-money/#ixzz1bf6fFXuz

        Again, the most aggressive Drug Policies are Where? Here in the United States. If Ron Paul is right and Drugs were Legal... We could in effect empty the Prisons as the United States incarcerates more people per capita then any other Country. 1 out of ever 100 Homes has a Family Member in Jail/Prison. Mainly due to Drugs. What a drain of the Judicial system, Detention system, Law Enforcement, People killed in Raids, Poor Dog's killed in Raids and this all goes on while Our own Government Uses the Drugs to finance their operations. Also they seem to Transport these Drugs for others too.

        If Opium and such were to flood the market, It would drive the Prices DOWN and BIG PHARMA could no longer charge $15.00 for a Single Pill as a Patient lays in pain dying of Cancer.

        MWM

        • 6 votes
        #23.14 - Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:33 PM EDT
        Reply
        BK Lim

        Watch this

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFuXFfkKrpg&sns=em

        • 6 votes
        Reply#24 - Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:57 AM EDT
        AngryWhiteMan63

        No. Not until you watch the video of the Helo transfer. Or are you afraid of the truth?

        • 1 vote
        #24.1 - Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:07 AM EDT
        MajWilliamMartin

        More and more people turn to Synthethic Drugs because the U.S. Government has it's hands in the Actual "Big Drug's" coming into this Country. I am waiting to watch what these cases show Mr. Lim as what will be the Conviction of a Sailor who used "Spice" over that of those who used REAL DRUGS?

        Is there going to be a Prison Term for using "Spices" that you can make synthetically or will the saying about Drug's are Illegal because the Government HATE'S Compitition? From the supplied URL'S, It is clearly shown that the U.S. aid's in the Growing abroad of Drugs.

        Who wants to destroy the economy of say... The Afghan's as that is their Primary Source of Income for sales to China and The Soviet's. Yet U.S. Soldiers are coming home HOOKED of this Product. Where they continue to BUY it when home. It is all one big circle. The Cartels would not be so Big if there were not a Market for their Exports into the USA. The Papers clearly show that 1,000 of Mexican Police are on the Take, Hundreds of US Police are on the take.

        Drug use is popular because in todays world... People want a Release from the day in day out of NO FUTURES. The Boys in Uniform may want an escape of just trying to forget what they have seen for 3-5 Tours of duty and the constant DEATH before them.

        MWM

        • 6 votes
        #24.2 - Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:30 PM EDT
        BK Lim

        Good Lord. I thought the drug problem (mainly heroin) within the military was at its height during the Nam war. Sounds like it is much worse now.

        • 6 votes
        #24.3 - Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:09 AM EDT
        Reply
        MajWilliamMartin

        I can only say...

        If I were LIED to over and over. Forced to KILL People for not having NOTHING to do with 9/11 what so ever. This would be like if 15 Canadian "Citizens" attacked inside the USA and to "GET EVEN" The United States invades NORWAY. The Government of Norway would want Proof so the U.S. would say, "Hey we have a "WHITE PAPER" that shows People in YOUR COUNTRY aided them. But they never produce it. Instead the U.S. Would BOMB them into the Stone Age for the next 10 Years. Maybe I too would turn to Drugs as an Escape. In August 32 Soldiers Committed Suicide. But if you read the REAL NEWS.. The Number of Suicides/Murders in the Military is a lot higher. There are too many Pat Tillman's being Killed/Murdered by their OWN!

        democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1410619 (The history of the "White Papers" and how the White House back peddled on the ties and lies they told the Taliban.

        Remembering of course that Almost ALL the Attacks on the U.S. and it's Interests have been from Saudi Arabian Citizens. Knowing too that if one read the FACTS. Bin Laden had Divorced the Saudi Family. Even the last one in Texas was a Saudi Citizen.

        usatoday.com/news/world/2002/02/06/saudi.htm (15 of the 19 Terrorist's were Saudi.)

        And the FBI'S MOST WANTED Poster does NOT list him (Bin Laden) for the events of 9/11.

        Plus, BIN LADEN died of Natural Causes in 2001. (foxnews.com/story/0,2933,41576,00.html)

        fbi.gov/wanted/topten/usama-bin-laden ( No Link to Bin Laden on FBI Web Site.)

        Then in an Interview with the late Tony Snow, "Penis i.e. Dick-Head Cheney" said, BIN LADEN WAS INNOCENT of Any Ties to 9/11.

        video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4646091253905495376 (Remember that Cheney was in and out of the PentagCON and CIA trying to link Bin Laden to everything, But he could not even find Al Qaeda links either.) Why no Al Qaeda?

        polidics.com/cia/top-ranking-cia-operatives-admit-al-qaeda-is-a-complete-fabrication.html (Top CIA said they FABRICATED the whole Al Qaeda Network. It only meant a BASE or LIST of Suspects. It was NOT a Organization. with Web Links all over the world. Now today (EVERYONE IS AL QAEDA)

        So the Iraq War which everyone calls an INVASION. If the U.S.of A were Invaded you could BET that all the people across this Land would stand and Defend Her. They would be called "PATRIOT'S". While Iraqi's on the other hand, They had their Country INVADED after the UN would NOT go to War so George W.ar Criminal BUSH formed his "Coalition of the Willing" Based on the Iraqi who now say's (I'm PROUD that I LIED about WMD'S) after all it was only 1,400,000 of his Fellow Countrymen that he helped to MURDER. But The Iraqi's were not called Patriot's they were called INSURGENTS. for doing just what anyone else would had done had their Country been Invaded. And from experience they saw what the USA had done in 1995 by Killing 500,000 Children due to Forced Sanctions. Sure they defended their Country, And now the USA is attacking Country after Country. (PAKISTAN IS NEXT!!!)

        huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20110216/eu-britain-iraq-curveball/ (Operation Curveball for the Iraqi that got paid 350,000 to RAT on Saddam and it was all LIES. Yet that Weasel lives in German with his 2 Sons. You have to ask now, Why don't he go home to Iraq? I am more then sure the Iraqi's have a ROPE for his neck too.

        Prior to the 1991 War, How did Saddam get his Bio-Weapons that he used on IRAN and the Northern Kurds? Well hell, "The USA SOLD them too him." Yes, Under 771 Dual Use Permits, Rumsfeld the Mastermind of Aspertame, We can all still see the Photo of Rumsfeld Shaking hands with Saddam in 1983 just before the U.S. started arming him to the Gill's with Tanks, Helicopters and Trucks.

        rense.com/general29/wesold.htm (Of course you can also go to Wikipedia and read the whole story of Arming Iraq with Bio-Weapons.

        But Our Government has a Problem with accounting for Bio-Weapons. You know that don't you???

        ahrcanum.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/ft-detrick-lab-missing-9000-virus-vials-scientists-still-dying-from-unnatural-causes/ ( Yes, Now that the DHS has 5000 Employees at Fort Detrick you should feel safe yes? NO!!! They want to move the Bio-Weapons Lab from Plum Island NY. To the Middle of America so if a Contagion were to be Released it would be ALL OVER America.

        www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZzWLJH6OkY Ahh, The Safety of Our Weapons Labs.

        Does YOUR RELIGION MATTER? youtube.com/watch?v=O-xGRENhz-4 The Government is taking care of your Religious Extreamism. They are like in Afghanistan and Iraq SPRAYING to Control your THOUGHTS!

        I would tell you what CONGRESS is OK'ing, BUT THIS IS CLASSIFIED.

        youtube.com/watch?v=5U5CEWsqa2c (Remember they were Elected to PROTECT WE THE PEOPLE!)

        An inventory of potentially deadly pathogens at Fort Detrick’s infectious disease laboratory found more than 9,000 vials that had not been accounted for, Army officials said yesterday, raising concerns that officials wouldn’t know whether dangerous toxins were missing.

        washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/17/AR2009061703271.html

        But lets go back to that Other War Criminal... Rumsfeld.

        Donald Rumsfeld and the Strange History of Aspartame: (huffingtonpost.com/robbie-gennet/donald-rumsfeld-and-the-s_b_805581.html) What is so sad, Is that this information is out there. Like that Handsome Fox Mulders Wall Poster said on the X-FILES, "The TRUTH is OUT THERE!"

        The chemical additive aspartame is very potentially a cancer and brain tumor-causing substance that has no place in our food. And two, the reasons and means by which Rumsfeld helped get it approved are nefarious at best, criminal at worst. And by the way, that medal that Rumsfeld got back in 2004 was the Presidential Medal of Freedom, also awarded to Tommy Franks, George Tenet and that charming warrior L. Paul Bremer. Evidently, "Freedom" means the right to use your powerful friends in Washington to approve your company's dangerous substance for human consumption and make a fat bonus on the way out the door.

        So how did aspartame become legal? And more importantly, if it had been rejected multiple times over fears of brain tumors and cancer, why?

        Dr. John Olney, who founded the field of neuroscience called excitotoxicity, attempted to stop the approval of aspartame with Attorney James Turner back in 1996. The FDA's own toxicologist, Dr. Adrian Gross told Congress that without a shadow of a doubt, aspartame can cause brain tumors and brain cancer and that it violated the Delaney Amendment, which forbids putting anything in food that is known to cause cancer. According to the top doctors and researchers on this issue, aspartame causes headache, memo

        • 5 votes
        Reply#25 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:47 AM EDT
        BK Lim

        Thanks MWM.

        And if they could fake all these, couldn't they fake a "small submarine accident at a location no one could be bothered with"?

        Revelant. Yes absolutely.

        • 5 votes
        #25.1 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:10 AM EDT
        MajWilliamMartin

        To even suggest that our Government could ... Could Lie?

        What about Jessica Lynch?

        Ms Lynch criticised the Pentagon, saying: "I'm still confused why they lied and tried to make me into a legend." Ms Lynch said the real heroes were those who died in the attack and those who rescued her.

        Initial reports also suggested that Ms Lynch had been abused after she came round in the hospital. She said the reports were lies: she had been treated well and the Iraqis had tried to return her to US forces.

        "The nurses tried to soothe me and return me," she told the hearing, adding that she objected to the way in which the US military had portrayed her.

        "American people don't need to be told elaborate tales" about US forces, she said.

        guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.marktran

        Within the Same Article:

        Private Tillman's death received worldwide attention because he had turned his back on a $3.7m (£2m) contract with the NFL team the Arizona Cardinals to enlist in the forces after the September 11 2001 attacks.

        In a report in March, the Pentagon's inspector general said Mr Tillman's relatives had not been told the truth even though commanders knew soon after his death that he had probably been killed by fellow soldiers.

        On Tuesday, former Army Pvt. Jessica Lynch testified in Washington, D.C., about the real story of her capture and rescue while serving in Iraq in 2003.

        She spoke before the House Government Reform Committee along with the family of fallen Army Ranger Pat Tillman. Tillman, a former professional football player who joined the Army Rangers after Sept. 11, was killed by friendly fire in Afghanistan. At first the military said he was killed by enemy fire and even posthumously awarded him the Silver Star.

        At the hearing, the chairman of the House panel, Henry Waxman, accused the government of inventing "sensational details and stories" about Tillman's death and Lynch rescue.

        cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/25/earlyshow/main2725423.shtml

        Also....

        WASHINGTON - Army leaders are weighing a new probe after the Daily News found evidence that former commanders in Iraq covered up the actions of an officer who shot a fellow G.I. - and left him to die.

        The Army has notified the family of Pfc. David Sharrett, 27, of Oakton, Va., that a new investigation into his death is likely once the scope is decided upon by Army Secretary John McHugh, a former upstate New York congressman.

        It would be the third inquiry based on new evidence unearthed by The News about the actions of commanders in the 1st Squadron, 32nd Cavalry Regiment of the storied 101st Airborne Division.(Why did the News unearth this and not the Military?)

        A 2008 Army probe wrongly blamed Sharrett for being mistaken for a terrorist in the darkness and shot by 1st Lt. Timothy Hanson, of Janesville, Wis., because he failed to activate an infrared warning flasher on his uniform.

        Hanson did not stick around to find Sharrett - who bled to death for 80 minutes - and three other missing soldiers.

        articles.nydailynews.com/2011-01-24/news/27096473_1_army-probe-hanson-commanders

        Then AGAIN... Whoop's!

        A secret video showing US air crew falsely claiming to have encountered a firefight in Baghdad and then laughing at the dead after launching an air strike that killed a dozen people, including two Iraqis working for Reuters news agency, was revealed by Wikileaks today.

        The footage of the July 2007 attack was made public in a move that will further anger the Pentagon, which has drawn up a report identifying the whistleblower website as a threat to national security. Why is telling/showing the Truth about how and to as why does the "TRUTH" become a National Security? I know this is Not the National Enquirer here, But some inquiring Mind's Would like to know why when deceit and cover-ups are exposed that suddenly they slap words like "Classified" "National Security" or I like this one the best... "It will Harm our Troop's or Informant's in the Field."

        Never could they say, Lets get to the bottom of these Lies. For the Parents whom watch their hard work of raising Children up to the early adult stage and hand them over to the Military, Suddenly find that they risk more from those they serve then those they fight. Even more so when there is an esoteric agenda to be found or had.

        youtube.com/watch?v=QJ_zTrjMhX8&feature=player_embedded

        "Political Language is designed to make Lies sound Truthful and Murder Respectful and to give the appearance of solidity to Pure Wind. "George Orwell"

        Another quote to be thought of as we send our loved ones to fight wars that are fabricated lies... Comes from yet another War Criminal; Henry Kissinger. "Military men are “dumb, stupid animals to be used” as pawns for foreign policy." I think back looking at the Atomic Bomb test's and how the Military sat like deer in the headlights as they watched the "Flash" and the "Radioactive Mushroom Cloud" that followed and then the Blast wave. That is the height of being S T U P I D! Why would their own Government do that in an experiment when we saw first hand accounts from Hiroshima and Nagasaki Japan. boston.com/bigpicture/2009/08/hiroshima_64_years_ago.html

        I suppose for some in the Military that watching the flesh ignite and peel from the host bodies of fellow humans would be then OK to have those under your command to sit out in the open like Lab Rat's and do that to your own Soldiers. Then to call ourselves, Civilized. If you think I am WRONG? Go to Military.com and notice 10,000,000 Subscribers, They LOVE to watch the Latest videos of Depleted Uranium rounds burning the occupants alive on the inside. That is Humane Warfare.

        In 2010, The Government Classified 16,000,000 Documents. So they wont be released for 25-30 years. Who is to say what they are hiding. I always found that it was interesting that they wait that long, But they make sure everyone is DEAD and GONE so actions can't be brought against those that committed crimes.

        Doing the Math... Would they Lie about a Submarine? Nah!. ha ha. When you tell a lie you have to have others lie to cover that lie. And so the Charade goes on and on.

        That is like asking if BP would lie, And now... Now they have been given the ALL CLEAR to start Drilling in the Gulf again but this time... Almost 1,600 Feet deeper, So I ask you, Looking at their massive safety records. What possibly could go wrong?

        MWM

        • 6 votes
        #25.2 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:30 PM EDT
        BK Lim

        Thank you MWM. Keep those true stories of lying coming. Wonder why AWM is keeping so quiet?

        Is it possible; just possible that the Navy is different and do not lie ever? That they would not cook up a story like the accident at Micronesia to cover their ar$e$?

        Nah I would not think so. AFter all they were controlled by the same chief of Staffs as above. So what is wrong with just one more lie.

        ((((((((MWM)))))))) you are such a truth fighter. A real soldier.

        • 5 votes
        #25.3 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:14 PM EDT
        Reply
        MajWilliamMartin

        Join the Navy.... Travel to distant far away places and meet exotic people, Then KILL THEM!

        That was Popular when I was young(er). ha ha.

        As far as the Navy, I will email you some *.pdf's and you can judge for yourself what is what.

        Reminds me of the Farmer telling the Salesman from the next town over.. "Son, My Daughter is as Pure as the driven Snow."

        The Salesman in reply said, "Well that may be.. But I can guarantee that She also has a few "Tire Tracks" through her too."

        I see where the Fed's are having Google remove anything Anti-Government from YouTube. There was a time where a man could speak his mind using that thing some refer to as a Constitutional Right that was supported by the Bill of Right's.

        As a refresher in case Homeland Security or One of the Fusion Centers is data-mining your Blog, They can pass this on to "Big Sis". i.e. Janet Napalitano.

        The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights. The amendment prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.

        en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

        All over America at these Occupy things, People are being arrested for Peaceably Assembling and Speaking their Thoughts... Martial Law IS COMING!

        However, As we move ever closer to the Fourth Reich. I often think of 1984 (The Movie) and I can see the end to Unemployment as soon the Libraries will soon have to Re-Text the entire History of the United States and remove such idle thought's as a man having the freedom to Talk and to speak his mind.

        When I had a Facebook account I used to laugh when I logged on. There on the Top of your Page is where you can enter your Blog Notes. It was Titled: What's on Your Mind? Due to Pre-Thought Crimes, Would a man dare say what was "Really" on his mind.

        Another note: Growing up I remember the Old Buck Rogers series where the Spaceship's had "Sparklers" to simulate Rockets. There were Ray Guns, Sound Guns, Light Guns, Then as time progressed Shows went to Lazar's, Stun Guns and it is all Real Today. So the Cinema is just a Looking Glass into time. Likewise, "Minority Report" is now real too.

        I will also send you a URL off my Website that will blow your mind away. It has Patent and Videos to reference all and what is interesting is how the Fed's are trying to USE these FMRI Machines that can read your Thought's. Sure, A man by law (For Now) can Remain Silent and take the 5th. But since they can Read your Mind now, Even if your Silent - Your Thoughts can not only be read, but with great accuracy too. So getting a Search Warrant for Someone's BRAIN is just around the corner. This also has to do with the ... Wait, I will tell you in a email.

        Milo say's Bark. MWM.

        • 4 votes
        Reply#26 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:11 PM EDT
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